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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#281

Post by 908B64B197 »

cldellow wrote: post #129
gonehome wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

For what it's worth, the things you call out don't seem to be the case in the Canadian public university that I attended, the University of Waterloo. > why are all degrees four years? UW offers three-year degrees. A four-year degree typically gets you an Honours Bachelor degree, whereas a three-year degree is a General Bachelor. On a resume it'd still be written as "B.A.", and the reviewer would have to know to inqui…

> It would be interesting to understand how they set the prices.

It's not the same everywhere. Cross the border to Quebec and it's a flat rate (every program is the same).

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#282

Post by albntomat0 »

kbos87 wrote: post #262

As someone who never did well with standardized tests, it’s frustrating to see evidence like this of how heavily they are still weighed in the college admissions process, even though it isn’t surprising. If I were applying to universities today and had otherwise good credentials but difficulties performing on standardized tests like the SATs, I wouldn’t feel an ounce of remorse for trying to cheat in a rigged system.

What are your thoughts on standardized tests as the most standard (not sure what a better word is here) comparison between applicants?

I recognize that a lot has been written about the SAT/etc being biased, but high school grades and "experiences" are worse (how does one compare what a "B" in Calculus or club president actually means, in all high schools across the US??).

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#283

Post by colechristensen »

gonehome wrote: post #12
colechristensen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what is frustrating about higher education, the wide gulf between chasing after a credential and chasing after an education.

I think a lot of this could be solved by Lambda School style ISAs. If the school isn’t actually good at education then it fails. True alignment of incentives.

This is fine for trade schools which can reasonably measure success by short term income of new graduates, but this is a terrible metric for higher learning in general.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#284

Post by musicale »

gnicholas wrote: post #277

This isn't terribly surprising given the degree of substitutability between very inexpensive community colleges (or state schools like CSUs here in California) and mid/lower-tier privates. Pre-pandemic, going to college away from home offered a fun environment with many amenities. During the pandemic, these fun aspects are greatly limited (and parents might not let kids go anyway, due to health risks). When you take…

Community colleges are the best deal in education (though they usually don't offer four-year degrees.)

And given the academic job market, basically any state university should be able to pick and choose among hundreds of highly qualified faculty candidates.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#285

Post by phabora »

jankyxenon wrote: post #232
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

In many other countries, top academics and researchers are at large public universities. Maybe it would be money well-spent for the public-sector to poach top academics from private intuitions. It would lead to salary inflation, but might be the most cost effective way to sap prestige and inject into good public universities.

> In many other countries, top academics and researchers are at large public universities.

But that’s not even terribly relevant to the average student. An undergraduate won’t benefit from going down the same hallways as the world’s foremost expert on Nigerian guinea pig digestive tracts. But for some reason having studied at the top university (in terms of research, not teaching) matters a lot.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#286

Post by austincheney »

bilegeek wrote: post #205
austincheney wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree) I so completely disagree. College/university is for education. If you want skills go to a trade school and save a truck load of money. As an example lawyers and doctors don’t gain skills in law/medical school. They are required to slosh through forced internships for that. CompSci graduates can’t tell the difference becaus…

> If you want skills go to a trade school Those really only exist for certain jobs, like plumbers, carpenters, electricians and machinists. I'm not knocking any of those positions - my parents and grandparents are/were machinists - but if you want to be an engineer or scientist, a college degree is required unless you want your resume to go straight to the shredder, or you're taking advantage of having friends and/or…

> if you want to be an engineer or scientist

Get a graduate degree and then a professional license, such as CISSP. Software developers are just skilled technicians like carpenters and plumbers.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#287

Post by phabora »

mcguire wrote: post #256
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

" Do the best universities have best teaching technique, or are they best because they pick brightest students and they contribute nothing special? " They tend to attract the best teachers. And by "teachers" I do mean the best researchers in the given field. Which in turn attracts the brightest students.

You can’t use teacher as a synonym for researcher, they’re two completely different things.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#288

Post by lokar »

908B64B197 wrote: post #229
ryandrake wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people people don't realize just how much name recognition matters when sifting through resumes. I think most people do realize it, which is why we're seeing what's being written about in the article. People realize if you merely want to be educated, you can do that for cheap or free anywhere, but nobody in HR screening resumes cares if you're educated. They care that you have name-brand pedigree. I remember f…

> I remember fighting for a candidate who I thought was super smart and could get things done, but he was from a mid-tier State school and not from Stanford and that was the end of it. If HR has anything to do with how engineers are selected there's something wrong with the company. They are there to schedule interviews and take care of the paperwork.

Recruiters (part of HR) select the subset of resumes that an engineer (IC or manager) will then pick from to have an actual (phone) interview.

It really sort of has to work that way. The volume and variance in quality is just overwhelming. There is no way someone technical could look at every resume.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#289

Post by solosoyokaze »

Noos wrote: post #218
solosoyokaze wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To create workers for the industrial revolution.

no, we have formal education because not everyone is an autodidact and may need actual help in evaluating and learning skills. Many skills are not like computer programming. You're not learning physical therapy from coursera, or even something like human resources; some things you need others for to mentor, correct, guide, or provide facilities for.

Apprenticeship is the historical way to accomplish this.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#290

Post by chiefalchemist »

gonehome wrote: post #17
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

The student loan system created artificial demand. Demand increases price. Students get larger loans because it's easy. Demand continues. Prices rise more, and so on. Price will rise as much as the market can bear.

Banks make out well. Higher edu makes out well. Politicians make out well. Students and often their parents lose.

That said, students and parents have alternatives - e.g., two years of community college and then transfer for two more years where a degree would have more prestige - but they too often refuse to do so. Gotta keep up with those Jones.

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