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Intel Problems

stratechery.com

281–290 of 431 posts

Re: Intel Problems

#281

I think one day we’re going to wake up and discover that AWS mostly runs on Graviton (ARM) and not x86. And on that day intel’s troubles will go from future to present. My standing theory is that the m1 will accelerate it. Obviously all the wholly managed AWS services (Dynamo, Kinesis, S3, etc.) can change over silently, but the issue is EC2. I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these ma…

How much does arch matter if you're targeting AWS? Aren't the differences between local service instances vs instances running in the cloud a much bigger problem for development?

Re: Intel Problems

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP was talking about managed services, like lambda, Ecs and beanstalk internal control, EC2 internal management system, that is systems that are transparent for the user. AWS could very well run their platform systems entirely on graviton. After all, serverless and cloud is in essence someone else's server. AWS might as well run all their paas software on in-house architecture

While there is vendor lock in with those services, it also has nothing to do with what CPU you are running. At that layer, CPU is completely abstract.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I am talking about code that runs behind the scenes. Management processes, schedulers, server allocation procedures, everything that runs on the aws side of things, transparent for the client.

Re: Intel Problems

#283
post #263

I think one day we’re going to wake up and discover that AWS mostly runs on Graviton (ARM) and not x86. And on that day intel’s troubles will go from future to present. My standing theory is that the m1 will accelerate it. Obviously all the wholly managed AWS services (Dynamo, Kinesis, S3, etc.) can change over silently, but the issue is EC2. I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these ma…

> I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these machines will age out and be replaced with m1 powered machines. At that point the idea of developing on ARM and deploying on x86 will be unpleasant Is it not at least somewhat possible that at least some of those Apple laptops will age out and be replaced with GNU/Linux laptops? Agreed that developing on ARM and deploying on x86 is unpleasant,…

> GNU/Linux laptops

Could we do a roll call of experiences so I know which ones work and which ones don't? Here are mine.

    Dell Precision M6800: Avoid.
        Supported Ubuntu: so ancient that Firefox
        and Chrome wouldn't install without source-building
        dependencies.
        Ubuntu 18.04: installed but resulted in the
        display backlight flickering on/off at 30Hz.

    Dell Precision 7200:
        Supported Ubuntu: didn't even bother.
        Ubuntu 18.04: installer silently chokes on the NVMe
        drive.
        Ubuntu 20.04: just works.

Re: Intel Problems

#284
post #251
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben missed an important part of the geopolitical difference between TSMC and Intel: Taiwan is much more invested in TSMC's success than America is in Intel's. Taiwan's share of the semiconductor industry is 66% and TSMC is the leader of that industry. Semiconductors helps keep Taiwan from China's encroachment because it buys them protection from allies like the US and Europe, whose economies heavily rely on them. To…

> Semiconductors helps keep Taiwan from China's encroachment because it buys them protection from allies like the US and Europe, whose economies heavily rely on them. Are there any signed agreements that would enforce this? If China one day suddenly decides to take Taiwan, would the US or Europe step in with military forces?

There are no official agreements since neither US nor any major European countries recognize Taiwan/ROC but US has declared multiple times that they would defend Taiwan (see ‘ Taiwan Relations Act’ & Six Assurances’)

Re: Intel Problems

#285
post #263

I think one day we’re going to wake up and discover that AWS mostly runs on Graviton (ARM) and not x86. And on that day intel’s troubles will go from future to present. My standing theory is that the m1 will accelerate it. Obviously all the wholly managed AWS services (Dynamo, Kinesis, S3, etc.) can change over silently, but the issue is EC2. I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these ma…

> I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these machines will age out and be replaced with m1 powered machines. At that point the idea of developing on ARM and deploying on x86 will be unpleasant Is it not at least somewhat possible that at least some of those Apple laptops will age out and be replaced with GNU/Linux laptops? Agreed that developing on ARM and deploying on x86 is unpleasant,…

This is why you run your environment on Linux and MacOS in Docker, so you don't have these screwy deployment issues caused by MacOs vs Linux issues.

Re: Intel Problems

#287
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of what should happen right? I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that one of the takeaways from the M1 success has been the weaknesses of x86 and CISC in general. It seems as if there is a performance ceiling which exists for x86 due to things like memory ordering requirements, and complexity of legacy instructions, which just don't exist for other instruction sets. My impression is that we have b…

> weaknesses of x86 and CISC in general "RISC" and "CISC" distinctions are murky, but modern ARM is really a CISC design these days. ARM is not at all in a "an instruction only does one simple thing, period" mode of operation anymore. It's grown instructions like "FJCVTZS", "AESE", and "SHA256H" If anything CISC has overwhelmingly and clearly won the debate. RISC is dead & buried, at least in any high-performance pro…

RISC vs CISC isn't really about instructions doing "one simple thing period."

It's about increased orthogonality between ALU and memory operations, making it simpler and more predictable in an out-of-order superscalar design to decode instructions, properly track data dependencies, issue them to independent execution units, and to stitch the results back into something that complies with the memory model before committing to memory.

Having a few crazy-ass instructions which either offload to a specialized co-processor or get implemented as specialized microcode for compatibility once you realize that the co-processor is more trouble than it's worth doesn't affect this very much.

What ARM lacks are the huge variety of different instruction formats and addressing mode that Intel has; which substantially affect the size and complexity of the instruction decoder, and I'm willing to bet that creates a significant bottleneck on how large of a dispatch and reorder system they can have.

For a long time, Intel was able to make up this difference with process dominance, clever speculative execution tricks, and throwing a lot of silicon and energy at it which you can do on the server side where power and space are abundant.

But Intel is clearly losing the process dominance edge. Intel ceded the mobile race a long time ago. Power is becoming more important in the data center, which are struggling to keep up with providing reliable power and cooling to increasingly power-hungry machines. And Intel's speculative execution smarts came back to bite them in the big market they were winning in, the cloud, when it turned out that they could cause information leaks between multiple tenants, leading to them needing to disable a lot of them and lose some of their architectural performance edge.

And meanwhile, software has been catching up with the newer multi-threaded world. 10-15 years ago, dominance on single threaded workloads still paid off considerably, because workloads that could take advantage of multiple cores with fine-grained parallelism were fairly rare. But systems and applications have been catching up; the C11/C++11 memory model make it significantly more feasible to write portable lock-free concurrent code. Go, Rust, and Swift bring safer and easier parallelism for application authors, and I'm sure the .net and Java runtimes have seen improvements as well.

These increasingly parallel workloads are likely another reason that the more complex front-ends needed for Intel's instruction set, as well as their stricter memory ordering, are becoming increasingly problematic; it's becoming increasingly hard to fit more cores and threads into the same area, thermal, and power envelopes. Sure, they can do it on big power hungry server processors, but they've been missing out on all of the growth in mobile and embedded processors, which are now starting to scale up into laptops, desktops, and server workloads.

I should also say that I don't think this is the end of the road for Intel and x86. They have clearly had a number of setbacks of the last few years, but they've managed to survive and thrive through a number of issues before, and they have a lot of capital and market share. They have squeezed more life out of the x86 instruction set than I thought possible, and I wouldn't be shocked if they managed to keep doing that; they realized that their Itanium investment was a bust and were able to pivot to x86-64 and dominate there. They are facing a lot of challenges right now, and there's more opportunity than ever for other entrants to upset them, but they also have enough resources and talent that if they focus, they can probably come back and dominate for another few decades. It may be rough for a few years as they try to turn a very large boat, but I think it's possible.

Re: Intel Problems

#288
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since AMD has introduced its first 7 nm chip, Intel's 14-nm chips have never been competitive. Intel's 14-nm process has only 1 advantage over any other process node, including Intel's own 10 nm: the highest achievable clock frequency, of up to 5.3 GHz. This advantage is very important for games, but not for most other purposes. Since the first 7-nm chip of AMD, their CPUs consume much less power at a given clock fre…

"This advantage is very important for games, but not for most other purposes." I disagree. The majority of desktop applications are only lightly threaded e.g. Adobe products, office suites, Electron apps, anything mostly written before 2008.

You are right that those applications benefit from a higher single-thread performance.

Nevertheless, unlike in competitive games, the few percents of extra clock frequency that Intel previously had in Comet Lake versus Zen 2 and which Intel probably will have again in Rocket Lake versus Zen 3, are not noticeable in office applications or Web browsing, so they are not a reason to choose one vendor or the other.

Re: Intel Problems

#289
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for moves again at Taiwan, China hasn't given up that prize. CCP hasn't give up since KMT high-tailed to Taiwan. for more than 40+ yrs American cozy up with the Chinese govrt and doing business with China. American told Taiwan govrt not to "make trouble" but we all know China is the one who make all the troubles with military threat and flying aircraft over Taiwan, day in and day out. Taiwan have build up a impre…

I bet TSMC has a number of bombs planted around the most critical machines, much like Switzerland has bombs planted around most critical tunnels and bridges. Trying to grab Taiwan with force alone, even if formally successful, would mean losing its crown jewels forever.

The bombs have been removed some years ago in Switzerland as the risk of them going off was deemed greater than the risk of sudden invasion.

Just to nitpick, your point absolutely stands

Re: Intel Problems

#290
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a MBP, as do all of my engineers. Within a few years all of these machines will age out and be replaced with m1 powered machines. At that point the idea of developing on ARM and deploying on x86 will be unpleasant Is it not at least somewhat possible that at least some of those Apple laptops will age out and be replaced with GNU/Linux laptops? Agreed that developing on ARM and deploying on x86 is unpleasant,…

> GNU/Linux laptops Could we do a roll call of experiences so I know which ones work and which ones don't? Here are mine. Dell Precision M6800: Avoid. Supported Ubuntu: so ancient that Firefox and Chrome wouldn't install without source-building dependencies. Ubuntu 18.04: installed but resulted in the display backlight flickering on/off at 30Hz. Dell Precision 7200: Supported Ubuntu: didn't even bother. Ubuntu 18.04:…

Most companies wouldn't end up trying to shove a disk into a computer though, they would buy from a vendor with support and never have compatibility issues. I have owned 3 System76 computers for this reason...
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