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Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

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Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#281

Post by gruez »

SSLy wrote: post #84
viraptor wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, but it's illegal. You're only allowed to virtualise MacOS on MacOS host. You also have to obtain the system which as far as I can tell you can't buy anymore - you can only upgrade to.

Just because something is unauthorized or breaks EULA (mostly void here in EU anyway) doesn't mean it's illegal.

On the flip side, why would it be legal? It's looks like a pretty cut case of copyright infringement. It's their software, you're not authorized to use it, but you're using it anyways.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#282

Post by tfvlrue »

Hamuko wrote: post #237
j1elo wrote: post #215

Apple doesn't deserve to have such careful and detail-oriented FOSS developers like Jason, developing for their platform. He is genuinely wasting time in order to work around Apple's developer-unfriendly platform. Not that I should be telling devs where they should spend their time... but I feel like so much effort is being devoted to fix Apple's issues. > When I'm debugging these issues, I'll often times spend a few…

I wish Apple would just integrate Wireguard into macOS itself. macOS has a built-in option for VPNs in the network preferences but it's shit like L2TP over IPSec.

I'm curious what's wrong with L2TP over IPSec. I use it primarily for remote management of networks and haven't had any problems with it. It's simple to set up, and pretty much every device has a client for it already built-in (Windows, Mac, iOS, Android). Is there a use case it's particularly poorly suited for?

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#283

Post by pimeys »

hundchenkatze wrote: post #243
tenacious_tuna wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiya! Former mac native developer here, moving to a new company. My new corp gave me the option of a thinkpad running windows or a Mac, and I chose the mac just so I could have a sane terminal experience, UNIX-like tools, etc. I would vastly prefer to use Linux, but unfortunately that's just not an option for a company-issued machine at this juncture--and in my experience it's easier to spin up a VM on a Mac than a W…

You should give Windows Subsystem for Linux a try. It's what I'd choose in your scenario. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dev-environment/ove...

I'm heavily invested in Linux for years already, a i3+terminal+firefox+emacs guy.

I forced myself to work on Windows 10 Enterprise for a week and left kind of feeling OK about it. It's a bit slower than Linux, a bit too many moving things by default and I definitely prefer the env vars and config files over registry and control panel. But. I didn't use WSL or WSL2. I just had nushell and Microsoft's terminal app, with winget and all that. Some keyboard shortcuts and multiple desktops enabled, writing Rust software with emacs, firefox and a good terminal was not bad at all. I would not dislike working more in there, but in the end find Arch Linux to be the end game OS for me, so keeping the installation just when I need to debug some Windows issues.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#284

Post by joshstrange »

Ensorceled wrote: post #75
wscott wrote: post #47

First off, what a level-headed friendly response from a developer who is clearly frustrated by Apple's bugs and policies. As someone who has had to support commercial software this is not easy to do consistently. Second, this has significantly tempered my lusting over the new M1 macs. I think I can be content with my ThinkPad's running Linux.

Yeah, I'm wondering if my next work computer will be something different after almost 20 years of working on NeXT/Mac OS X/MacOS because I'm not sure general development will continue to be viable on the M1s. Spent another weekend moving my wife over to a new Windows machine ... not interested in that environment.

> I'm not sure general development will continue to be viable on the M1s.

I'm not trying to carry water for Apple here but what types of development are you talking about that won't be able to continue on the M1? Sure a lot of stuff wasn't there at launch but it looks like even docker (which was speculated to take a long time to get working) is getting close to a solution for arm and x86 containers to run on the M1. Brew is another one that wasn't ready at launch but my guess is that within a year or so the M1 (or it's successors) will be nearly identical to my current dev setup (which is one reason I'm waiting for the dust to settle).

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#286

Post by ubermonkey »

tasn wrote: post #172
ubermonkey wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it's beyond me why would anyone willingly use an Apple product" With respect, then, you aren't making much of an effort to understand.

I have an iPhone and macOS for development. I clocked a lot of hours on them over the years. I admit, I was sometimes jealous of mac hardware, for example the new M1, magsafe, and etc (though not the terrible keyboards). Though I was never jealous of an iPhone's hardware. I was never ever jealous of the software. I always found it buggy and user-hostile. The line you quoted was specifically about the user-hostility.…

My Macs and my iOS devices are neither hostile nor obstructive to me. Again, if you are confused by this, you aren't trying hard to understand.

I control my Mac just fine. I've built tools from source; I run whatever I want; I can automate tasks I find tedious using the same shell tools available on Linux, and I still have access to MS Office (and no, open/FOSS "alternatives" don't work sufficiently well for me) and other COTS tools I depend on.

The Mac is absolutely the right platform for me, and I don't find it limiting or broken or hostile AT ALL. And neither do millions of other folks.

I also work regularly with Windows, and have a higher-end Dell XPS on my desk for that purpose. Windows is so profoundly broken and un-discoverable and inconsistent (not to mention unstable over time) that I cannot fathom choosing to use it over anything else -- and it's the only OTHER platform where I could get access to some of the tools I rely on. Linux isn't there, and hacks to try to make things like Win software run there imply a level of tedious fiddling that I'm 100% retired from.

>Is this such an unreasonable opinion?

I guess it depends on whether you consider an unstudied, single-POV opinion reasonable.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#287

Post by zamalek »

tandr wrote: post #279
j1elo wrote: post #215

Apple doesn't deserve to have such careful and detail-oriented FOSS developers like Jason, developing for their platform. He is genuinely wasting time in order to work around Apple's developer-unfriendly platform. Not that I should be telling devs where they should spend their time... but I feel like so much effort is being devoted to fix Apple's issues. > When I'm debugging these issues, I'll often times spend a few…

> Apple should be losing devs in favor of other better platforms, not the other way around. So far, good hardware, close-to-*ix-OS software, and penetration are kind of make them a hard competitor to beat. What other "better" platforms are you thinking about?

System76 is one: https://system76.com/

Edit: and don't forget that ElementaryOS gets you pretty damned close to the Mac UI experience. I personally prefer GNOME, which seemingly steals inspiration from across the industry, so it's different but also really slick (the use of Super/Winkey as both alt-tab and the launcher is genius).

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#288

Post by young_unixer »

lrossi wrote: post #60

> I woke up this morning with my inbox lit up by netizens outraged at me for having allowed the WireGuard Project to produce such terribly subpar and dysfunctional software for the Mac. That was a weird way to wake up on Christmas, considering how much I really do care about delivering polished software. The response is much nicer than deserved. I would not have blamed him for a less friendly reaction.

I'm laughing right now trying to imagine how Linus would have replied to this.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#289

Post by Joe_Cool »

uncledave wrote: post #255
foepys wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft broke a lot in the past few years when they got rid of their dedicated QA department(s) but they are very keen of fixing backwards compatibility issues. I can still run my desktop application that I compiled in 1998. Try that on a Mac.

Try running 16-bit visual basic, which I was still writing as late as 2000, on a Ryzen and your analogy falls to bits. I remember the entire win16 to win32 porting effort that had to go in. APIs are never stable forever. Change is the only constant and I've learned to embrace it where possible or suffer later.

That would actually work fine on Windows 10 32bit. It still has NTVDM and can run 16bit and DOS programs.

Re: Response to “WireGuard: great protocol, but skip the Mac app”

#290

Post by deeter72 »

tandr wrote: post #279
j1elo wrote: post #215

Apple doesn't deserve to have such careful and detail-oriented FOSS developers like Jason, developing for their platform. He is genuinely wasting time in order to work around Apple's developer-unfriendly platform. Not that I should be telling devs where they should spend their time... but I feel like so much effort is being devoted to fix Apple's issues. > When I'm debugging these issues, I'll often times spend a few…

> Apple should be losing devs in favor of other better platforms, not the other way around. So far, good hardware, close-to-*ix-OS software, and penetration are kind of make them a hard competitor to beat. What other "better" platforms are you thinking about?

A thinkpad with Fedora?
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