School or Prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School or Prison

#281

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:42 AM UTC

matthewfcarlson wrote: post #163

ineedasername wrote: post #100

A more meaningful comparison would be bathroom privileges. In prison you can pretty much poop or get a drink of water whenever you want. In school you need special permission, and hope the teacher wasn't in a bad mood or that 3 other kids hadn't needed to pee in the last half hour, meeting some mental quota the teacher has for the appropriate # of people that should have to use the toilet during a given period of tim…

One of my favorite memories of high school was making guacamole in my physics class. I finished the exam early and had some spare time. Lunch was at 1:30pm and I had breakfast 5:40am most mornings. The teacher walked over, grabbed a chip, scooped up some of the guac, and munched on it. "Luck for you, that's really good. Otherwise I'd kick you out of class"

[deleted]

Re: School or Prison

#282

Post by kube-system » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:42 AM UTC

foolfoolz wrote: post #77

my biggest complaint about schools at least in the US is they all are specially designed. they usually have an architect involved. it’s style is specific to the land it’s on. and each one is so expensive to build. then the community can show off its fancy school, great, it’s a snowflake i would rather the state appoint an architect group to design like 5 model schools that are modular. and then any time a city needs…

A modular design might work if you're starting from a blank slate, and had relatively few variables to account for. But this is rarely the case, even in new construction on a vacant lot.

Land isn't uniform, lots have shapes, roads already exist, utilities have to be connected, local construction requirements vary, existing structures have to be accounted for. You're likely not going to save money by forcing everyone to use the same 5 designs because that will just shift inefficiencies elsewhere -- where they're even more expensive. Unnecessarily moving earth or buying more property to fit the 5 mandatory designs is going to be way more expensive than simply building the structure to fit existing limitations.

Re: School or Prison

#283

Post by samename » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

throwaway998662 wrote: post #266

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll prob…

Thank you for your perspective. Hopefully one day we can change this system.

Re: School or Prison

#284

Post by ip26 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #198

pavel_lishin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our principal refused to let students leave campus, as a student had gotten in a car wreck over lunch and died at a previous school. So, there's some logic there. They are nominally responsible for you during school hours.

I call this "outlier driven policy"; one single instance of some thing happening some where at some time within the past 100 years means that everyone for perpetuity has to follow some new rule because the lim(x -> 0) risk is simply too much . For instance, there was one person, 2 decades ago, flying out of france, who hid a bomb in his shoes so today we are all still taking off our shoes, all of us, each time, on ev…

I mean, speaking of the shoes, yes it was one time. But once it was shown to work, there would probably have been many copycats without a countermeasure.

Re: School or Prison

#285

Post by kube-system » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #273

kube-system wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No -- common law ascribes different responsibilities to a school during the school day, in comparison to before arriving or after leaving for the day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis The logic isn't "kids might die in a crash", it is that "schools are responsible for what happens to kids during the school day". The school administration isn't trying to be altruistic, they're trying to avoid liability f…

[dead]

> derived from English common law

Re: School or Prison

#286

Post by leephillips » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

stevewodil wrote: post #268

leephillips wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I tried to treat my students as adults, to the occasional chagrin of the administration, as much as possible. I definitely did not trust them—I knew too much—but I tried to pretend that I did. So my ploy was to discourage the students who would otherwise go hang out in the bathroom every single class. Of course one needs to go several times per day. But that does not translate to every time my class me…

I'm not going to assume anything because it may have just been what you told the children, but if you actually sent notes to the nurse without talking to a kid beforehand, you're definitely overstepping. It's perfectly normal for bowel movements to be on a schedule. If a student it leaving your class multiple time per week then have a discussion to see what's going on, you might learn something about their life that…

I did in fact talk to them beforehand, and only sent two notes in two years.

Re: School or Prison

#287

Post by qPM9l3XJrF » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:46 AM UTC

throwaway998662 wrote: post #266

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll prob…

Bring back flogging!

Another great way to deal with male criminals would be to cut their balls off. Solves the root problem.

Re: School or Prison

#288

Post by KingMachiavelli » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:47 AM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #56

aarroyoc wrote: post #28

My philosophy teacher said that both prisons and schools end up being a panopticon because you want the same in both places: maximize the feel of power of the authority, don't leave any place without surveillance,...

I have never seen a school with a literal panopticon (a tower from which everything can be seen, and which can not be seen into). So then if not a literal panopticon, a metaphorical panopticon? Doesn't mirror my school experience either. Feeling was that the teachers had no idea what was going on most of the time. But I didn't go to school in the US, maybe that's why?

High schools in the US can sometimes get very close. There are often large schools of two to three thousand students and in a country with ample access to weapons, security becomes an issue very quickly.

Both university level and lower education levels in the US will probably have large security camera systems. I know some smaller schools can't quite afford it but the medium and large state schools can.

Re: School or Prison

#289

Post by kart23 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #81

paulpauper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is because tall, rectangular buildings maximize volume to surface area, whether a hospital school or prison. It is not a form of social control or domination. it is more efficient this way. A one-story hospital would be prohibitively expensive to build in an urban area, and it is not like healthcare is not already too expensive.

High-end office builds are also efficient rectangular prisms far more often than not, yet they don't feel like hospitals, schools or prisons. I've spent extensive time in all of these except prisons, and I can tell you the difference is stark. What explains that? Is it all just down to expensive trim and interior decor? I'm sure that plays a part, but that was never my main impression. Instead, it comes down to the l…

Nope. Its windows. Prisons in most cases are buildings without windows or very small ones. Offices and schools pretty much always have windows.

Re: School or Prison

#290

Post by mlyle » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #198

pavel_lishin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our principal refused to let students leave campus, as a student had gotten in a car wreck over lunch and died at a previous school. So, there's some logic there. They are nominally responsible for you during school hours.

I call this "outlier driven policy"; one single instance of some thing happening some where at some time within the past 100 years means that everyone for perpetuity has to follow some new rule because the lim(x -> 0) risk is simply too much . For instance, there was one person, 2 decades ago, flying out of france, who hid a bomb in his shoes so today we are all still taking off our shoes, all of us, each time, on ev…

> For instance, there was one person, 2 decades ago, flying out of france, who hid a bomb in his shoes so today we are all still taking off our shoes, all of us, each time, on every flight. Splendid.

I feel like the shoe inspection is silly, but this seems like the wrong logic. To the extent that there's a vulnerability in the system, patching it makes sense, even if it's only been exploited once.

No one has closed network sessions with unauthenticated RSTs lately like we used to do in the 90s-- so is the sequence check no longer necessary?

Of course, one needs to consider the cost-benefit of every mitigation measure and whether you're addressing the biggest risks.