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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#281

Post by smsm42 »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #263
smsm42 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it ever happen? Did anybody actually get out of being cancelled by mobs by apologizing?

The point of apologising isn't to avoid consequences. It's intended to mitigate three sorts of damages: that inflicted on whoever suffered because of you, the damage society experiences any time its rules are broken, and the damage you have done to yourself by breaking some moral standard you believe in. To that end, an apology that allows s/o to "get out" as in "saw no further consequences" isn't necessarily what's…

> As to "getting out" of "being cancelled" by "mobs" I wouldn't know since I already have trouble identifying what that's supposed to mean.

I have a strong suspicion that you know what I mean, you just don't want to recognize that. If you indeed know nothing about cancel culture, I envy whatever bubble you reside in, and I wish I could organize my life to never encounter it too, however it is not so for me. If you pretend not to know about it because you don't want to engage in discussion about it, well, I certainly can't force you.

> And, yes, of course there are people apologising for all sorts of behaviour that's being criticised every day.

You may find it hard to believe, but I actually know people do such thing as "apologizing". I do it myself once in a while. My question was in specific context of the comment "Agreed. Apologizing may keep the mob size small and insignificant." and related to this context, not to general act of apologizing and whether or not it is practiced in human society. I think you have missed this context and from that follows your trouble to identify what I supposed to mean. I think I made it cleared now, or at least did as much as I could to make it clear.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#282

Post by shirakawasuna »

textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

> Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands

"widely known"

You're interpreting your ideological position as normative and factual.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#283

Post by smsm42 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #209
smsm42 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are considering the situation where a mistake was made. I don't think the Kavanaugh situation applies - depending on your views on it, it is either situation of cynical rapist and hardcore liar, thoroughly corrupt evil man, denying his crimes, or an innocent man being falsely accused in a vile crime. In both situations, apology wouldn't solve anything.

Item #0 from TFA is "that there is no point in pretending you have not made a mistake." Both the GP comment and myself are disputing this fact. I think it's odious to do so, but there absolutely is a point in doing so. As far as Kavanaugh, obviously none of this applies if he is not-guilty, because few advocate apologizing for things you didn't do. However: There are a lot of middle-aged adults who did terrible thing…

> Among those, the ones who own up and apologized are excluded from many positions of power, while those that deny it are included.

That depends on the level of power the said adult has accumulated. We've witnessed people who were persecuted for most minor transgressions, and people who were forgiven for very major things (e.g. credible rape accusations, being an officer in the KKK, being a member of a terrorist organization, being in prison for murder while being a member of a terrorist organization, etc. etc.). That, of course, needs very powerful position and very powerful friends - which none of us likely has.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#284

Post by Const-me »

> So you've made a mistake and it's public

People make mistakes. Not a big deal.

> Step 0

Totally agree.

> Step 1

The rest of these steps however is complete BS. Here’s generic answers.

> What led you to make it?

The rest of the data I had on the subject, so far.

> Were you acting on bad information?

Who precisely rates information as good or bad?

> Without sufficient information?

Sufficient for what?

> Were you pressed by a deadline or by a strong opinion from someone else?

None of the above.

> Were you following a broken process?

No.

> Did you act on the basis of circumstances you wish were the case rather than the circumstances that are in fact the case?

WTF?

And so on.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#285

Post by StavrosK »

OJFord wrote: post #219
core-questions wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

> Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" At least in the UK, that's not the full sentence, or it could be, but only with a change in tone ('SOrrY?!') - to me it's more like 'Oops my foot was in your way I think, so sorry'. (Said of course before you have a chance to think 'no hang on, I wasn't in the way, you weren't looking, this isn't my fault'…

So basically an "excuse me what the fuck"?

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#286

Post by ekianjo »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

Agree that also in my experience, apologies lead to being perceived as weak. You will also notice that most leaders (think top management) never apologize, let even directly recognize any kind of personal mistake - I don't think it's just for a lack of honesty (although there's some of that too) just rather a technique to never look weak in any circumstance.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#287

Post by shirakawasuna »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #155
bosswipe wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressives are widely known for things like increasing the minimum wage, expanding access to health care, or legalizing drugs. I've never heard progressives pushing for forced public apologies.

AFAIK, Cortes is a Progressive[0], and a congressperson, which puts her in a position of power. She encouraged her supporters to create a list of Trump supporters so they can be denied employment in the future[1]. Jennifer Rubin, likely also a Progressive[2], said: “any [Republican] now promoting rejection of an election or calling to not to follow the will of voters or making baseless allegations of fraud should nev…

1. Her last name is Ocasio-Cortez.

2. Progressivism barely means anything. You can characterize virtually anyone who even just says anything positive about social change as progressive. Better to characterize her as a social democrat or democratic socialist, depending on your impression.

3. "Just the News" is an incredible source to list. A right-wing rag founded by the former editor-in-chief of The Washington Times. Might as well just refer to the actual tweets: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1324807776510595078. They are about the typical denialism that follows reactionaries that did, you know, horrible things and not allowing their images to be blindly rehabilitated as public servants. Emphasis on remembering the actions of public servants, not whether someone will simply be denied employment.

4. Jennifer Rubin is a never-Trump conservative turned American establishment "centrist" (which is still a right wing position).

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#288

Post by StavrosK »

freedomben wrote: post #221
core-questions wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

Are you from the pacific northwest by chance? My wife is and she will constantly apologize for things that are 100% the other person's fault. It really bugs me, especially because the other person will some times say, "oh it's ok" (as they are accepting her admission of guilt) and I usually say something like, "Honey, that wasn't your fault, you shouldn't be apologizing." On the flip side, when someone runs in to me…

Greek here. The only way we use "sorry" is "I have done something to hurt you and I apologize in earnest".

For lighter things, like bumping into you, we might say "sorry" (as in, the English word), which sounds more casual and not as severe.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#289

Post by GreeniFi »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

Sorry to hear this story. Sounds like you’re over it, but maybe your younger self would have benefited from hearing this: https://twitter.com/JIMrichards1010/status/12391407105589698...
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