Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#281

Post by rsync » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #275

rsync wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an almost comical level of reductionism concerning exclusionary zoning. If I lived in a suburban neighborhood I would not want a 7-11 nextdoor. Or a steel fab shop. That is exclusionary zoning and it has nothing to do with race or class discrimination. It disappoints me to see democracy - and democratic outcomes - embraced only when it produces results we like.

People who run factories aren't going to tear down a house and try and wedge a factory there. That's not the sort of thing anyone wants to eliminate, anyway. You ought to have a look at this book, which makes the link between exclusionary zoning and flat out racism pretty clear: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten... Oh, and I would indeed love to live near a corner store. Lots of people did…

I am willing to stipulate that exclusionary zoning (like many other pieces of our laws and jurisprudence) has been used many times in bad faith and to ill effect.

As a literate person versed in current events, of course I am aware of this history.

That does not mean, however, that exclusionary zoning should not and should never have existed.

"People who run factories aren't going to tear down a house and try and wedge a factory there."[1]

When your starting point is well organized, well planned, well intentioned environments it's very easy to underestimate the effects of loosening these restrictions that never made any sense to you and why can't we have a cute little pub right here anyway ?

On the other hand, if you have actually grown up in a place where people had horse corrals next to light industrial with a smattering of houses in-between and oh, look, that's an auto-shop on the back of their residential lot ... you would know that the bullshit people pull in absence of these rules is incredible and fascinating.

When they started enforcing some rules there[2] it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that one quarter of the town was running unpermitted septic systems because, by god, they were not going to pay for city sewer. Also, llamas.

[1] A family member of mine did exactly this.

[2] Canon City, Colorado

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#282

Post by refurb » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 12:47 AM UTC

sagarm wrote: post #280

refurb wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pretty massive thought bubble, at least for the professional class. It has a massive number of highly paid, white, left-leaning people. Opinions outside of that bubble are met with "I didn't know people like you existed!". If that's not a bubble, I don't know what is.

The Bay area and tech is not predominantly white. While hispanics and black people are underrepresented, Asians (both south and east) are dramatically overrepresented. In addition, Bay area people are from all over the country and from diverse backgrounds. In contrast, rural communities tend to be highly homogeneous both in terms of race and life experience.

An exception doesn't disprove the rule. Go walk around any upper income neighborhood in SF. It's mostly white. Sure, Asian make up a good percentage, but it's mostly white at the upper echelon.

And sure, people come from all over the country, but they gravitate here because the SF bubble aligns with their own views. And if your views don't align, you learn pretty quickly to keep your mouth shut.

And sure, rural communities have their own issues, but you can have a much more diverse perspective going to any number of "fly over country" cities in the US.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#283

Post by ngokevin » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 4:20 AM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #74

ngokevin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you don't like summer heat and heat waves. SF is more consistently around 70F. Depends if you like 55F - 75F versus 70F - 90F

We're talking about the same SF from this summer where the heat waves were just as bad as SoCal? California climate change now means you're going to get heat waves pretty much everywhere.

Never felt remotely hot where I live in SF. Maybe towards Mission and further south/east.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#284

Post by refurb » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

tylerjwilk00 wrote: post #262

refurb wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you remove all "wasteful" travel, you're still causing more pollution living away from a major hub. Instead of a non-stop SFO to JFK flight, now you're taking a 1 hr Uber (or driving yourself) to a local airport, then taking a connecting flight to SFO.

You're still in a bubble. Taking a flight for a business meeting is wasteful. Full stop.

You’re clearly extrapolating your own experience to everyone. And have never done sales.

Doing meetings, serious meetings, over Webex sucks balls.

If your some developer who never has to talk to anyone, then sure, your unproductive team meetings don’t have to be in person.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#285

Post by arok » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #210

burlesona wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space in big cities comes at a premium, but tech workers living in SF have hardly been living in squalor. Most of SF is single family homes, and the vast Bay Area beyond even more so. Also, having done the spreadsheet many times myself, it’s almost never a raise to move to a low-cost area. The reason people make that move is that they’ve accumulated so much wealth in SF that they can basically retire so long as they…

I’m not so sure - housing is so expensive in the Bay Area it’s more than just moving to retire. I grew up in Buffalo where housing is quite inexpensive so it’s more dramatic for me, but a small house to raise a family is 2.3 million on the peninsula, super old, pretty small (1600sqft), and being a new buyer your property tax on that is 23k per year. That’s insane even if you get a million dollars in an exit or in goo…

I’m in Sacramento, been here a few years. There’s definitely been people moving from the Bay out here. For some people, you can buy a large enough house with a yard, but you have the option of driving in to the Bay if you need to go in to your office from time to time, while mostly working remotely. Certainly not the perfect option for everyone, but it works for some people.

I agree on the need for more multi-family housing. There’s been a boom of apartments and condos around Downtown and Midtown Sac, but they are all “luxury” units with the price tag to match. People not making a good salary don’t seem to be helped at all, so there needs to be more policy than just “build more rich people housing.”

But then again I was one renting a “luxury” apartment before I bought my condo in a gentrifying neighborhood, so maybe I’m part of the problem.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#286

Post by sagarm » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 8:08 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #282

sagarm wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bay area and tech is not predominantly white. While hispanics and black people are underrepresented, Asians (both south and east) are dramatically overrepresented. In addition, Bay area people are from all over the country and from diverse backgrounds. In contrast, rural communities tend to be highly homogeneous both in terms of race and life experience.

An exception doesn't disprove the rule. Go walk around any upper income neighborhood in SF. It's mostly white. Sure, Asian make up a good percentage, but it's mostly white at the upper echelon. And sure, people come from all over the country, but they gravitate here because the SF bubble aligns with their own views. And if your views don't align, you learn pretty quickly to keep your mouth shut. And sure, rural commu…

According to Wikipedia, the 2018 ACS estimated SF is 40% White, 5% Black, 34% Asian, 15% Hispanic, and 5% mixed race.[1]

Are you really surprised that sharing a party with white nationalists makes you an outcast in a city as diverse as San Francisco?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco#....

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#287

Post by gonehome » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

arok wrote: post #285

gonehome wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not so sure - housing is so expensive in the Bay Area it’s more than just moving to retire. I grew up in Buffalo where housing is quite inexpensive so it’s more dramatic for me, but a small house to raise a family is 2.3 million on the peninsula, super old, pretty small (1600sqft), and being a new buyer your property tax on that is 23k per year. That’s insane even if you get a million dollars in an exit or in goo…

I’m in Sacramento, been here a few years. There’s definitely been people moving from the Bay out here. For some people, you can buy a large enough house with a yard, but you have the option of driving in to the Bay if you need to go in to your office from time to time, while mostly working remotely. Certainly not the perfect option for everyone, but it works for some people. I agree on the need for more multi-family…

Increasing supply matters more than policy around what specific housing is built.

If you increase supply (even if all “luxury”) - older units become cheaper relative to new units. The supply is the most important bit.

Affordable housing policy is often pushed as a way to not really increase supply. They’ll build one price controlled housing unit that’s nearly impossible to get an apartment in and call it done.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#288

Post by silicon2401 » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #152

asdff wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the math that people are weighing. Live in comparative squalor in the bay or nyc in your cramped apartment with no grass and no light and little opportunity for change as time goes by and your family potentially grows, or move back home and live like an absolute king in a legitimate mansion with yards on all sides with a three car garage, basketball hoop, and a pool in that rich rich neighborhood wit…

Don't you see that this is the kind of framing that rubs people the wrong way? There's nothing wrong with having different preferences, but it's frustrating for Bay Area natives to constantly hear that it's a terrible place nobody could enjoy on its own terms.

I would consider it a personal problem if a bay area native dislikes hearing that some people don't like the bay area. Is it unreasonable to expect adults to have the emotional maturity to handle such things?

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#289

Post by SilasX » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

lasereyes136 wrote: post #278

SilasX wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it was obvious to you, I think discussions work better when people don’t have to guess what someone’s explanation is.

That is the whole point of information asymmetry in negotiation. The party with more information has an advantage. All salary discussions are negotiations.

I was referring to clarity about what one's argument is on HN, not information on a job search.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#290

Post by mythrwy » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #204

mythrwy wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All 4 of those state will still be red. We aren't talking about a population altering number of people.

Montana already has a Democrat governor and one senator.

Not anymore.