When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion • Hacker News Board

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#281

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:43 AM UTC

halad wrote: post #221

barry-cotter wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen. An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism. Germany was among the most highly educated countries in the world in the 1930s. The Russian Revolution was an elite phenomenon. In a country of peasants the Revolution was of and by the intelli…

Looking at politics in the UK on both sides of the political spectrum it is very clear that the public education system here is completely failing. In the general population there appears to be very little critical thinking, ability to regulate emotions, cost benefit analysis, consideration of opportunity cost, probabilistic thinking, nor even a rudimentary understanding of the scientific method, political and legal…

Reminder that the lag on education affecting society is huge. People aged 65 received their education from 1960 onwards! There are still people alive and voting from before the 1944 education act! (although not many)

I would more blame the newspapers and other media for poor understanding of issues, which is mostly deliberate on the part of the Murdoch press.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#282

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:47 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #164

mgh2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I won't deny that even the educated can be manipulated- look at our generation affected by corporate and political agendas. Yes, totalitarian states have used education to indoctrinate masses to maintain order and power. Depends on who does the teaching and how it is taught, that is why critical thinking is key. Given this prerequisite, is an educated population easier to be manipulated than an illiterate one?

> Yes, totalitarian states have used education to indoctrinate masses to maintain order and power. Depends on who does the teaching and how it is taught, that is why critical thinking is key. None of the German Empire, Weimar Republic or Russian Empire were totalitarian states. If education is protective against indoctrination the effect is at best weak. A lively marketplace of ideas is no guard against organized thu…

The Russian empire was an absolute monarchy until 1905 that was definitely totalitarian by modern understanding. The subsequent semi-democratic government was ineffective.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#283

Post by phobosanomaly » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:49 AM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #278

phobosanomaly wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of our system is that (as much as is possible) education is not limited to the 'elites' and 'intelligentsia.' Rather, it is distributed in a (relatively) egalitarian fashion amongst not just those who call for war and revolution, but those who rot in the trenches and die upon the bayonet. School is excellent at building the cohesive fabric of a society , including teaching it's boredom, authority, and point…

> The point of our system is ... It seems to me that, to responsibly make a statement of that form, you would have to look at when the system was created and look at the motivations of the people who created it (or made significant changes to the system and its objectives). If we're talking about the compulsory education system, that means looking at when the compulsory education laws were first passed, and what was…

You've obviously looked into the history of the system to a deeper degree than I have. I not only appreciate the effort, but I respect your opinion as to my point.

Do you figure I'm making a good point, or do you disagree? If I'm wrong, what is the point of school? Why does every country do it?

Again, curious to hear your thoughts.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#284

Post by username90 » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:49 AM UTC

krageon wrote: post #249

StavrosK wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> usually a roundabout way of complaining you can’t say racist things anymore As an external observer, this seems to me exactly the problem. Discourse is so polarized, that nobody can say "this thing that started as a reaction to overt racism has gone too far" without people replying "that just means you're racist". The situation has come to where there are ridiculous abuses going on, and criticizing them is anathema…

> Discourse is so polarized, that nobody can say A large part of it is signaling through terminology. If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one. There are definitely people that are able to discuss certain social trends becoming a problem without using dogmatic terminology, which is where the conversation becom…

American liberals runs the social networks almost everyone uses so whenever they decide to cancel stuff the whole world gets affected. Therefore it makes sense that many people all over the world learns to hate them and their cancel culture.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#285

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:51 AM UTC

Well we certainly have an opportunity to fix education but I doubt we will make the right changes because the public education system in the United States suffers the same problems the police system does.

Public Employee Unions. Whose first task is not to serve the people whom their members are supposed to work for. Just look at the demands some of these unions put up as required before going back to the classrooms! Some wanted changes to minimum wage, taxation, and more! Nothing related to education because they themselves have nothing to do with education other that there are teachers as their members.

It is well documented how teachers in good standing with the union can get out of schools they don't want to be in meaning if they don't like the neighborhood its too damn bad for the kids there. They can also avoid disciplinary actions and have their records protected from public view and in many districts have their records expunged within only a few years.

There are many great teachers out there but they are stuck in a system government by a political class masquerading as their union. A union which serves local politicians first and parents and students are so far down the list as to not be considered. Hence when it comes to bettering education their first response isn't how to do so but instead how to benefit their financial position

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#286

Post by thefounder » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:57 AM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #274

cabalamat wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be hard to be clearer that the purpose of the “education” system is indoctrination. You call it indoctrination. Someone else might equally call it social cohesion.

Call it what you want - it sure isn't critical thinking.

So homeschooling is "critical thinking" ?

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#287

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 9:59 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #262

krageon wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Discourse is so polarized, that nobody can say A large part of it is signaling through terminology. If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one. There are definitely people that are able to discuss certain social trends becoming a problem without using dogmatic terminology, which is where the conversation becom…

> If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one. So you can't say "cancel culture has gone too far" without signaling you're right-wing? I'm not up to speed with the exact politics, but I've heard the term in non-right wing contexts. Seems to me like that would make it impossible to talk about things, which is what…

[deleted]

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#288

Post by username90 » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

vivekd wrote: post #141

mgh2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might work for outliers/higher IQ/elite people in the HN community, but consider this: 1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule. 2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to…

That sounds good in theory but research seems to suggest that homeschoolers overwhelmingly perform better on every single metric. Although I'll grant that there may be data bias in that smarter and more devoted parents are more likely to homeschool. https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/#:~:te... .

Control for socioeconomic status and homeschooled kids tend to do worse in STEM subjects. Even your link which mostly doesn't control for SES and therefore is very biased says this. Therefore you can't say that it is better on every metric, if you think that STEM is important then homeschooling is bad.

> Qaqish (2007), on the other hand, examined the ACT math scores of college-bound students and found, while controlling for background variables, that the conventionally schooled performed slightly better than the home educated.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#289

Post by StanislavPetrov » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:08 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #286

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it what you want - it sure isn't critical thinking.

So homeschooling is "critical thinking" ?

My above comment was directed at the two parent comments who were variously referring to public school conditioning as "indoctrination" or "social cohesion". Whatever you choose to call it, public schools (in the United States) do not teach critical thinking - quite the opposite.

Whether or not critical thinking is on the agenda for a homeschooled student depends entirely on the teacher and the curriculum.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#290

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #192

mgh2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I won't deny that even the educated can be manipulated- look at our generation affected by corporate and political agendas. Yes, totalitarian states have used education to indoctrinate masses to maintain order and power. Depends on who does the teaching and how it is taught, that is why critical thinking is key. Given this prerequisite, is an educated population easier to be manipulated than an illiterate one?

Obviously that depends. Here is another way to phrase your question: You spend 10 years telling John some stuff every day for hours and Jane is someone you just met. Which one is easier to lie to? Sounds to me like it completely depends on a lot of different things, but if you know what lie you want to tell ahead of time: obviously John is easier to lie to.

That isn't obvious at all. Folks get smitten by people they've barely met. It doesn't take years to be tricked into joining a cult: You can convince folks in a matter of months.

John might be 10 years into your lies, but he also might have caught on. You use different lies with Jane, who might not know better, and she listens wholeheartedly and with good faith.

If John is an adult and Jane isn't, Jane is easier even with the age difference. This is simply because of lack of knowledge and experience.

If one has more access to the outside world than the other, they are less likely to believe your lies.

If John knows you have mental health problems that causes you to lie and Jane doesn't, Jane is easier to lie to.

Maybe John is more suspicious of people and the world. Maybe John just shuts up to appease you, like folks that avoid talking politics with their families simply don't want to deal with things.

Are you someone younger? DO you have authority over them?

There are so many things that affect whether or not you can lie to someone.