How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#281

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

skitout wrote: post #254

greggman3 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

> but you are just generalizing

No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent.

>But the German example

Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument for why this will happen. The best I've heard so far is we should unionize because Europe's unions don't suck. I've never worked (in tech) in an environment where I feel I am getting screwed hard enough that the unions are the lesser of the evils. I understand game devs may feel differently (and they will likely unionize before the rest of the industry IMO).

Basically American unions suck which is why American workers in well compensated industries don't want them.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#282

Post by mattlondon » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:47 AM UTC

bananaface wrote: post #267

mattlondon wrote: post #252

For UK readers: consider joining the 100-year-old Prospect union https://prospect.org.uk/about/who-are-prospect/ > more than 145,000 members who work as scientists, engineers, tech experts and in other specialist roles. I see it simply as something of an "insurance policy" in case bad stuff happens - I feel this is especially useful to have this as backup as Brexit and the fall-out from COVID are on the horizon...

How does the protection work in the case of e.g. Brexit going badly? Do they have insurance policies that pay out if the UK economy tanks?

I was thinking more if the economic conditions after brexit/COVID are bad and one's employer starts doing some dodgy things, you have some element of protection.

So I was thinking unfair dismissal, poorly executed/rushed/unfair "redundancy", and general other unfavourable things from a company that is struggling. Or maybe your employer suddenly thinks it doesn't need to care about equality or employment law and the like etc now we're out of the EU, or are taking a liberal interpretation of any new legislation that is screwing over the workers etc.

If the company is going bust after brexit there probably isn't much here that can be done, but if it is just downsizing/cost-cutting etc or instigates some questionable & unfavourable new policies you at least have some element of help, even if it is just giving you some advice or sending your employer a letter from their legal people etc.

Might buy you some time or a better exit-package if nothing else. Having looked down the barrel of two potential-redundancies (that were avoided eventually) in the last few years without anyone to talk to about "is this fair? am I getting screwed? what can I do?" etc, it is well worth it for the peace of mind and the feeling that you have someone who can go out to bat on your behalf if you think you've been screwed IMO. Everyone talks about how the employee-employer relationship is totally skewed towards the employer, this at least feels like you stand a chance if anything bad happens.

Uncertain times.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#283

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:51 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #271

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

> Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes.

This made me wince; while it's not straight up wrong it's a collection of generalisations about humans jammed together that deserves a slightly more delicate unpacking. Like opening an Amazon box and finding your electronics just fall out with no foam peanuts or other protection.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#284

Post by eel » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:53 AM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I just don't see the value of unions in tech right now. I make decent money. My hours are consistent at 40 per week. If the employer employee relationship sours, there are 100s of other companies, and it's easy to switch jobs compared to other industries.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#285

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:54 AM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #243

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Marriot jammed wifi in their conference centers to make you pay for theirs. Therefore hotel chains are a bad idea. /s

Yes, that kind of thing is a scam to make you pay more than you need to, a.k.a. "profit maximising" for the individual. But we seem to just accept that as natural for companies while shunning individuals that do it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#286

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:55 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #249

anthuswilliams wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Unless its defenders have shown good reasons as to why the points raised by the satirists are inapplicable. Which they haven't. The assignation of "quality" in people is a corrupt and folkloric reflection of the preferences of those in power, and that phenomenon is becoming ever more pronounced as industries consolidate.

The fact that a person can just study programming on their free time for a few years and then get a job paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is proof that at least in some cases meritocracy works. All you need is proof that you are great at programming, doesn't have to know anyone or have any kind of prestigious background to do it. That is what I did. I studied programming for a bit, started getting among…

Remember this post the next time there is a 500 post thread about how hiring is bs or promotions are all politics. That cannot possibly jive with the system being a meritocracy.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#287

Post by ausbah » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:57 AM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #239

throw_m239339 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and benefits Teachers > So it seems like unions protect the employee Yes, that's the entire point of a union. It's about the employees, nothing else. collective bargaining. union is strength. > that only hurts education It doesn't, that's a myth. What hurts education is lack of funding for education.

> It doesn't, that's a myth. What hurts education is lack of funding for education. The pay being the same between a good teacher and a bad teacher, doesn't hurt education? Or teachers unions pushing to get tenure preventing bad teachers from being fired, and being able to collect a pay slip for doing no work while waiting a year for disciplinary hearing?

teacher's unions are one of the few tools educators have to fight back against the chronic cuts to public education that have been occurring in America. this benefits students and educational facilities by helping get more state funding, helps keeps teacher pay at a more competitive level (hopefully keeping "good teachers" in their jobs), among other things

I think the points you raise are valid, but given what an abysmal state public education and unions in general are in America - I think the benefits of teacher unions greatly outweigh the costs

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#288

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 11:58 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #272

faitswulff wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening.

It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#289

Post by dexen » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:03 PM UTC

skitout wrote: post #254

greggman3 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

>And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same.

European here, let's talk personal experience. The americans have a very unhealthy situation wrt unions, and i'm not surprised people with do-it-yourself and can-do attitudes common in tech are soured up to them. And my impressions are relative to polish culture, where unions are traditionally quite strong.

I was responsible for selecting several tech conferences for my boss to visit, both in USA and Europe, Middle East, and Asia. Having read most of the documents proffered, I was shocked to find the amount of red tape that was specific to union arrangements in USA, and USA only. Stands, decorations, electrics, cargo large and small. The rider of one american general contractor was the longest document I had to process across 3 continents. We're talking "young institutions" - tech conferences, organized mostly by, and for, "do it yourself" kind of people.

Were the problems insurmountable? No, certainly they were surmountable. Did it have a sour taste and impression of a lot of wasted effort on both sides of the contract? Yes, certainly it did.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#290

Post by save_ferris » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:04 PM UTC

MHard wrote: post #217

missedthecue wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are their salaries so low then? I'm not seeing the advantage here.

I think it should be obvious that unions are not the only factor contributing to salaries. For instance: Average salary for tech in Germany is roughly twice as high as in Spain, even though they are working in the same market zone and have comparable workers protection. Though there are some differences in fiscal policy like for instance Vat tax (Spain 21% for service industry, Germany 19%). I believe the main reason…

Don’t forget about access to capital. The relative ease of raising rounds in the US compared to Europe due to the more concentrated networks of investment capital pushes salaries up because startups need to hire ASAP to build their product.