The Programmer Salary Taboo • Hacker News Board

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#281

Post by gnosis » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:12 PM UTC

jinushaun wrote: post #88

Reading all the replies on HN reminds me why companies like to outsource. Americans are expensive and have a strong sense of entitlement. This race to make more money for the sake of money just leads to accelerating inflation across the board. As far as I am concerned, salary is just a number and people can live just fine on $50,000 if they we weren't such a consumerist society.

"Reading all the replies on HN reminds me why companies like to outsource. Americans are expensive and have a strong sense of entitlement. This race to make more money.."

Ah.. right. And the owners, board members, and CEO's of these companies are too enlightened to be concerned with mere trifles like money, nor would they ever dream of feeling entitled to anything.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#282

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:15 PM UTC

dezwald wrote: post #224

I find that in canada (toronto, ontario) programmers are not paid near the amounts of programmers in the US. 5 years ago i started at 40K (working in Hamilton). Now living in toronto, and i find that newly graduate programmers start around 50K-60K, and senior programmers make anywhere between 80K-100K. I feel that living toronto/ontario, programmers are utilized as tradesmen, where they service the industry (corporat…

Your health care is a lot cheaper. You have to consider these kinds of issues. The market rates must be as they are for a reason.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#283

Post by teamonkey » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:20 PM UTC

sceaj wrote: post #222

So, I'm most certain that I'm being given the shaft by my employer. A coworker recently quit, because he felt underpaid (his previous job paid him over 10% more). Negotiations with HR got him nowhere, so he left. The coworker and I had identical jobs, and we did them in the same capacity, with very similar skill levels. When he left, he disclosed everything to me. Despite being underpaid, he was still being paid sign…

You could try asking them. "What do I need to do to earn X?" If it's something reasonable, get them to give you a timescale and an action plan so it's in writing that if you hit these targets you'll get your salary raised to X.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#284

Post by pilib » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:36 PM UTC

While not being a programmer, I did work as a sysadmin for a hosting company. Since I quit around 2 years ago, I was asked by my ex-colleagues on several occasions would I consider returning there. Now, these questions were raised by my coworkers and not my boss, but nevertheless, my answer was the same. Yeah, sure, if they double my salary from 2 years ago, assign me to a higher tier support level so I don't have to deal with customers in any way.

Simple reason for this was that knowing my peers salary, both those of lower, equal and higher position, I knew how much I was worth to them, and how much others were slacking.

So, with public salaries, you get that. With them being private, I would probably ask for a small raise based on economic situation. I'm not saying I wouldn't work for the same money as before, It's just that I'd feel like a jerk toward my self in that case.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#285

Post by michael_dorfman » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:48 PM UTC

rweba wrote: post #164

glhaynes wrote: post #83

Are there parts of the world where it's customary for salaries to be known?

In Norway all tax returns are public: http://skattelister.no/ In fact I just looked up an old high school classmate and was initially surprised at how much she was making - until I realized 280,000 Kronor is only about 50,000 USD.

FYI: 280.000 is a pretty poor salary in Norway. Gasoline here just topped $10/gal, if that gives you an idea of the cost-of-living-adjustment necessary. In other words, your friend is not living the life that a $50k salary in the US would buy (in terms of disposible income.) On the other hand, she gets 5 weeks of paid vacation a year, full health care, and a year's paid maternity leave with each child.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#286

Post by nchlswu » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 1:54 PM UTC

dezwald wrote: post #224

I find that in canada (toronto, ontario) programmers are not paid near the amounts of programmers in the US. 5 years ago i started at 40K (working in Hamilton). Now living in toronto, and i find that newly graduate programmers start around 50K-60K, and senior programmers make anywhere between 80K-100K. I feel that living toronto/ontario, programmers are utilized as tradesmen, where they service the industry (corporat…

You're not considering regional standards and cost of living, though. Even if you consider that, I think what you described is hardly specific to the Toronto Area. Any company without their own "dev shop" or tech culture, regardless of area will consider programmers as tradesmen.

Toronto may be on the low end, but I'm pretty sure the "true" tech companies in the area are much closer to the higher end than you think.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#287

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 2:08 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #15

My teeth always grind when I read articles like this. Yes, you can make $100K at Google. In Mountain View, California. How does that correlate to someone doing the same job in Austin, Seattle, Chicago, or Cleveland? The cost of living swings greatly when you depart the west coast. Decent wage databases will add another variable to the position and experience axes: the geographic area where the job is offered. (Exampl…

Personally I think the cost of living stuff is largely a red herring. First of all, it's normally not even. Maybe rent is cheaper but food is higher, or certain necessary services are more expensive. Second of all; an iPhone costs the same in Mountain View as it does in podunk Arkansas. You can say "but... luxury!" all you want, we have more and more of these nationally priced items around us all the time.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#288

Post by dopkew » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 2:11 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #26

jrockway wrote: post #2

I've always wanted to write exactly this blog post. Keeping your salary confidential is great for big companies, but it benefits you in no way. You should be making what your coworkers make. If you make less, you're being fucked, plain and simple. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can remedy the situation. Sadly, some people go their whole careers without doing so. FWIW, my first programming job only paid $…

But it does benefit you, personally: by not having your information out there in public, you can claim whatever you want when you go into salary negotiations, and the hiring company has no way of knowing that you'd be perfectly happy with a significantly lower salary. Generally, whichever side has less information public about them is at an advantage in negotiations. Unfortunately, this leads to a prisoner's dilemma…

When salary information is private, the employee has advantage while negotiating a new job, whereas, if the salary information is public, he has advantage while he is within the company.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#289

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 2:21 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #57

teej wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cost of living adjustment is one of the easiest calculations to do. Is it as simple as this ( http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+in+mount... ), or did I misunderstand your point? It doesn't seem that complicated to take a $100k salary point and normalize for cost of living.

It's just another data point. A lot of kids about to graduate will look at these salaries, go "holy crap! I'm headed to the Bay!" and completely overlook other parts of the country where they could make comparable or even better salaries, relatively speaking. And yes, I did read the part where Google adjusts for region in their other offices. I just don't think other companies always do the same.

[deleted]

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#290

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 2:22 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #57

teej wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cost of living adjustment is one of the easiest calculations to do. Is it as simple as this ( http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+in+mount... ), or did I misunderstand your point? It doesn't seem that complicated to take a $100k salary point and normalize for cost of living.

It's just another data point. A lot of kids about to graduate will look at these salaries, go "holy crap! I'm headed to the Bay!" and completely overlook other parts of the country where they could make comparable or even better salaries, relatively speaking. And yes, I did read the part where Google adjusts for region in their other offices. I just don't think other companies always do the same.

That's a bad strategy. If you're going to move away from family and friends to the dead middle part of the US where you'll have less opportunity, less useful connections, etc., then the salary you get is going to have to be much higher to offset this career hit.

Further, if you're on $100k+ in the Bay and you can get down to a ramen lifestyle with roommates, etc. you could potentially save more than you'd even make in the midwest.

I've lived in one of the lowest cost of living places in the US and I'm now living in one of the more expensive countries in the world. I am a lot more financially successful here than I ever was there and I was single there. Now I have a wife and kids.

>And yes, I did read the part where Google adjusts for region in their other offices. I just don't think other companies always do the same.

This makes no sense. You think other companies have offices in the middle of Oklahoma but pay employees a Valley wage? They must have people literally getting into gun fights over the janitor jobs.