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On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

reuters.com

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Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#281

Post by agensaequivocum »

jzb wrote: post #259
waheoo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I am suggesting is that it is immoral to take more when others are given less. You mean like how America takes more than the rest of the world? I think the underlying problem here is that executive salaries and bonuses are at too higher multiples. Much higher than historical norms. Not many would complain about an exec getting a bonus during this time if it was actually reasonable in the first place.

"Not many would complain about an exec getting a bonus during this time if it was actually reasonable in the first place." This right here. If the CEO made, let's say, five times what I do - or some reasonable multiple during normal times, I wouldn't object to some retention bonus to maintain as much stability at the top as possible. I acknowledge that 1) C-level and VP-level gigs come with responsibilities I would n…

> I do mind bullshit like this where they make in a year or two what I can expect to make over more than a decade, maybe even a lifetime

Why do you care?

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#282

Post by dehrmann »

kelnos wrote: post #205
dehrmann wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody wants to try to turn around a bankrupt company at their old salary I'll take it a step further. Even in Chapter 7, you want to retain certain key people so debt holders can get the best return. Sale of assets and negotiating debt won't go as smoothly without those people, and the process could be tied up in bankruptcy court for years. It's a job only specific people would do well it, and it's a job no one wa…

This really just perpetuates the attitude that the only thing that matters is finance, and all the workers can just go pound sand.

I'm a proponent of balancing shareholder, employee, and customer interests, but we're talking about bankrupt companies; those workers are losing their jobs regardless. You're paying the finance team to hang around so employees get their last paychecks rather than lining up as creditors in the bankruptcy court.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#283

Post by dehrmann »

scarface74 wrote: post #231
kelnos wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really just perpetuates the attitude that the only thing that matters is finance, and all the workers can just go pound sand.

It is. The only purpose of a business is to make money. If workers are so hurt by being laid off, that’s not the fault of corporations acting rationally. That’s the fault of our system where the government doesn’t have an adequate social safety net in place. We should stop expecting corporate America to be responsible for “taking care of their employees”. There job should be to focus on profits and pay taxes to suppo…

> The only purpose of a business is to make money.

It's also the only reason workers show up.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#284

Post by clairity »

darkerside wrote: post #218
mjburgess wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they would. These "time of crisis" instincts are very primitive, as are most emotional reactions of this kind. To makes sense of them just imagine an extended family operating, c. 100k years ago. The idea is this: in a time of crisis (say, very low food) how immoral it would be for the father (, etc.) to take much more than the mother (etc.). And these feels very plausible. It is in the nature of a family to exp…

I think this is your point but helping spell it out. The father in this case is probably the best shot at obtaining more food for the starving family and needs energy to do so.

you've made a lot of assumptions to reach that conclusion.

for counterbalance, women burn less energy per mass on average and are less massive on average, which means they'd last longer in the search, raising the likelihood of finding food.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#285

Post by lend000 »

eat_veggies wrote: post #244

There are so many comments in this thread justifying this behavior. > The last thing you want is key employees jumping ship > Of course they do. How else do you get people to stick around on a sinking ship? > While it looks immoral if you don't understand the mechanics, people are simply responding to incentives around bankruptcy laws Do people really believe that the mechanics of bankruptcy laws, and the incentives…

Perhaps you should read the threads and try to "understand the mechanics" rather than judging the first line. The whole point of the "while it looks immoral" thread is that corporate chapter 11 bankruptcy laws are broken and incentivize these consequences.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#286

Post by koheripbal »

lm28469 wrote: post #270
koheripbal wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shareholders are willingly paying this money because they believe it's the best way to turn the company around. It's their money, and their decision. Where do you get off say "are WE going to allow it?". Who the hell are you? This whole thread is people who don't understand the context of these decisions. The public has no say.

> The public has no say. In the US yes, but it doesn't _have_ to be like that.

If you are saying that the State should tell companies how to spend their money on internal management... then you don't really believe in private property at all.

These people are spending their own money to turn the company around. Who the F is the State to tell them they are doing it wrong? Who the F are you to tell them to spend their own money differently?

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#287

Post by koheripbal »

jzb wrote: post #256
koheripbal wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't understand how bankruptcy works. ALL key employees needed to keep things going through the bankruptcy process are paid more. You are under the impression that companies love throwing money at executives, but just like regular employees, companies only pay the minimum they NEED to pay them to keep them around. Why on earth would shareholders accept throwing money away to executives???? you position isn't…

"You are under the impression that companies love throwing money at executives, but just like regular employees, companies only pay the minimum they NEED to pay them to keep them around." Only because we have a system where every company - you know, controlled by execs, and a board made up of execs or former execs from other companies - tell this tale. We have to stop pretending C-level and VP-level people are specia…

I don't think you understand how corporations work, fundamentally. The executives aren't the bosses - the shareholders are the bosses.

They aren't idiots paying the CO's exorbitant amounts for fun. They do it because they have no other alternative.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#288

Post by koheripbal »

ric2b wrote: post #242
koheripbal wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't understand how bankruptcy works. ALL key employees needed to keep things going through the bankruptcy process are paid more. You are under the impression that companies love throwing money at executives, but just like regular employees, companies only pay the minimum they NEED to pay them to keep them around. Why on earth would shareholders accept throwing money away to executives???? you position isn't…

> Why on earth would shareholders accept throwing money away to executives???? you position isn't logical. Because more often than not they are friends with the board and the main shareholders.

You think they give each other millions of their own dollars, out of friendship??? Does that really make sense to you?

This is business. No one is gifting people their own money because of friendship.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#289

Post by koheripbal »

jzb wrote: post #254
koheripbal wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the same experience. No one wants to work at a bankrupt low-morale company, so the only way to keep key people was to offer special bonuses for retention to keep things together through the bankruptcy process If you think about it, it's literally the only way to do it. These folks have usually lost a ton of money on their company stock options. The only way to keep them around is to pay them more in the shor…

"The only way to keep them around..." I call BS. It's not as if there's a shortage of employees or execs to go around right now. When a company is taking its lumps, the execs should too. That should be part of the deal. If the people who actually do the work are getting laid off or asked to double their efforts to compensate for people laid off, then the execs ought to be content to ride out a period without bonuses…

This comment is 100% your emotional baggage and 0% logic.

You expect an employee to stick around to "take the lumps" voluntarily, for LESS compensation than they would get elsewhere?

The reality is that you just don't give a shit what happens to the company or the employee, so you're happy to see the whole thing fail.

...and that's 100% your baggage - don't subject the rest of the world to your emotional problems.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#290

Post by [deleted] »

eat_veggies wrote: post #244

There are so many comments in this thread justifying this behavior. > The last thing you want is key employees jumping ship > Of course they do. How else do you get people to stick around on a sinking ship? > While it looks immoral if you don't understand the mechanics, people are simply responding to incentives around bankruptcy laws Do people really believe that the mechanics of bankruptcy laws, and the incentives…

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