German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving • Hacker News Board

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#281

Post by Alupis » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #250

Alupis wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the narrative was a $1 million dollar loan from his father? Do you have a source for "100's of millions"? Sure, a $1 million dollar loan from family is pretty generous, and an amazing starting place - certainly not a "from nothing" tale. However, it's not outlandish money for a business loan to a top-rated business school graduate with extensive industry experience either. I'd also wager if you gave most pe…

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/d...

> but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s

Donald Trump had already taken over the business in 1971.

Seriously disingenuous to call it "his father's real estate empire" 30 years later.

Even more disingenuous to claim he received $413 million in today's dollars through tax dodges - it's not like you get paid by paying less taxes; that was money earned regardless. Not to mention the framing of "tax dodging" vs "paying the minimum amount the government required by law". (Taxes are due tomorrow - did you decide to pay more than you were required just out of generosity? I'd bet not.) It's also unclear what "records" the article is citing, since Trump's tax returns famously have never been released. I'd like to think, by now, if something nefarious was up with the Trump tax returns, the IRS would have taken notice...

Clearly the NYT has an axe to grind. Their word choice, and decision to lump a decade into one monetary number, and represent earnings earned while serving as company president as some sort of fatherly gift is clearly a misrepresentation of reality.

> Trump started out with 100's of millions

Flatly, this is wrong. Ran the company for 30 years before earning that money. That's not "starting out" no matter what way you want to frame it.

So, in short, this myth is busted.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#282

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

fluffything wrote: post #193

Nagyman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"have the hardware needed" ... being legalese/marketing speak for "the hardware may indeed be capable, but the software is not (yet)". So they're gearing people to expect the full self-driving capability, _eventually_. Shady to say the least.

That marketing was not misleading, it was and still is a lie. They have upgraded the hardware at least 3 times already. The first time this lie might have been just sheer incompetence. But after three upgrades, I can only assume that the lie is malicious and negligent. Musk has been claiming that his "fleet" of 10,000 robotaxis will arrive next year for a couple of years already. I mean, he is going to be right event…

[deleted]

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#283

Post by Robotbeat » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #190

Robotbeat wrote: post #188

I think it’s poor for “autopilot.” That word has a long history. It really is the best existing word to use. But a fair ruling for “autonomous.” And I think the concerns HN people have with “autopilot” are in part due to the fact that the terms have not been properly contrasted by Tesla. Being more careful with “autonomous” and “self-driving” would help a lot with the confusion with the word “autopilot.”

Tesla's not only calling their stuff "autopilot", but also "full self driving", which is probably the wrong way to describe their current implementation. Its a bit annoying to see people so fixated on the word "autopilot" when its clear that "full self driving" is complete and utter vaporware, a $5000 lie sold by the company.

A lie requires the company to believe it is not true and yet say it anyway. Elon is pretty delusional (at least that he often has crazily optimistic ideas about what is and is not feasible); he’s also paranoid about AI becoming self-aware and destroying humanity; it’s reasonable to suggest that Elon believed his own projection, here.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#284

Post by krick » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

bb611 wrote: post #111

u10 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Betting against Elon is a fools errand not because he's right, but because he's built a personality cult around himself.

"markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent." TSLA proves this in spades, right now the stock is trading at more than double what Elon said was "overvalued" 10 weeks ago.

But the bubble must collapse eventually, right? Enron was "the most innovative company" for 6 years in a row too.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#285

Post by natch » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:46 PM UTC

Slartie wrote: post #209

natch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a web site though, not an advertisement. Was asking about advertisements.

That web site clearly advertises a Tesla car. Hence it is an advertisement. Maybe you meant to say "TV commercial"? The German law doesn't make that distinction though, which means that blatantly false claims about capabilities of a product are just as illegal on the products' website as they are in a products' TV commercial.

I don’t see any blatantly false claims though. But certainly there can be false interpretations.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#286

Post by camjohnson26 » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

Noughmad wrote: post #166

dreamer7 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman Sorry to nitpick but highly knowledgeable people will surely never claim Musk is an idiot anything. He is definitely a genius in several ways. For something so technologically advanced as self-driving cars, his stuttering style seems to convey more sincerity to the general public than Steve Job's glib speech ever would

He is obviously a genius, like Steve Jobs, and Donald Trump, and just about every billionaire are. You don't become as successful as that without being both very lucky and very smart. What many people don't realize is that these people are not genius engineers, they are all genius marketers. Their amazing talent is not in creating something useful, but in convincing other people (investors, buyers, voters) to give th…

You’re exactly right

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#287

Post by Leherenn » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #46

notRobot wrote: post #4

> The Munich court agreed with the industry body’s assessment and banned Tesla Germany from including “full potential for autonomous driving” and “Autopilot inclusive” in its German advertising materials. Fully autonomous driving won't be here for _at least_ half a decade so this judgement makes complete sense. Tesla was engaged in flase advertising.

any idea if these materials were in German or in English?

It was in German. Very few countries run adverts in languages different from the local ones, especially in the big European countries.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#288

Post by atonalfreerider » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

richardrk wrote: post #268

martythemaniak wrote: post #219

Well, I'm gonna disagree. Let's quote wikipedia: > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilot does not replace human operators. Instead, autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations (for example, monitoring the traj…

Not sure if that quote supports your argument. Tesla states: "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment." [0] This sounds very different from "allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations". I have never heard of pilots having their hand and feet on the stick and paddles i…

> I have never heard of pilots having their hand and feet on the stick and paddles in case the airplane make an incorrect maneuver.

From the FAA guidlines on Autopilot:

> Be ready to fly the aircraft manually to ensure proper course/clearance tracking in case of autopilot failure or misprogramming [0]

[0] https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/a...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#289

Post by giobox » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #50

H8crilA wrote: post #2

Tesla has been selling level 5 autonomy since 2016. I can see nothing wrong with that. Definitely not vaporware /s https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now...

I wonder why Tesla even needed to go that far to make the product sell. It is already a damn good car, a leader in its space. Also, Waymo which was closest at that time to Level 5 autonomy was far off from a product.

It’s never been about selling product, although it helps. The hype around autonomy and full self driving has fuelled their share price growth for some time.

Just selling cars alone does not justify Tesla’s current valuation (how could it? Making cars is a notoriously tricky and oftentimes unprofitable business).

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#290

Post by wittyreference » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

> let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice

There's a very odd tendency for people to engage with corporate PR packages in the same way they engage in interpersonal interactions. In the abstract, sure, they get that it's a crafted artifact meant to maximize profits, but in the immediate sense... they act as though the words have any intrinsic meaning at all rather than "white noise that maximizes likelihood of profit, while ideally not instigating litigation or regulation."

It's not unique to Tesla. It's every single time a major corp. issues a significant public statement, as though it's some sort of earnest missive from the founder rather than a PR-crafted artifact vetted by legal, compliance, and probably the COO and CMO, if not a board member or two.

Corps are profit-maximizing engines. They are not your buddies. They are not speaking from the heart. They're not even spinning something that started off as something from the heart. They are designing cognitive drone strikes meant to optimize public reception of current business practices.