University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT • Hacker News Board

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#281

Post by ordinaryperson » Fri, May 22, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

Lot of great comments here, just wanted to add one piece of historical context:

This had a really bad outcome the last time the UC system tried to do this 20 years ago: https://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/02/21_sat.html

In response to the UC's criticism the College Board added an essay to the SAT. The thinking was this would expose the softer, more human side that standardized tests missed.

What happened?

It significantly increased the cost of the test (gotta pay someone to grade it) and made it even harder for poor kids to go to rich schools because they couldn't afford the more expensive test.

Not to mention the subjectivity of grading an essay.

Standardized testing is like that Winston Churchill quote on democracy being "the absolute worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" -- what system does the UC have that's more fair?

The NYT piece said they're planning on developing their own test -- so now prospective students have to take two tests if they plan on applying to schools outside the UC system?

The practical effect of this is Asian Americans will have to work 2x as hard as other groups to get into good schools, as was revealed by the Harvard case https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollme....

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#282

Post by redwall_hp » Fri, May 22, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #214

zajio1am wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

My college did this. They don't have the strictest admission standards, but they're ranked well in STEM because of this. What's funny about people criticizing standardized tests in college admissions is, at least in a big school, 80% of your Calc I grade is effectively three standardized tests, so if someone's just "a bad test taker," throwing them into the deep end with 1200 other freshman engineers isn't doing them…

My university, another state school, did the same sort of thing. They have something like a 50% graduation rate, and employ the same sort of washout techniques in science classes. My freshman CS classes dropped to less than a quarter of their initial size by the end of the first semester. The math department is very selective about transferring credits too, to stop people from taking an easier Calc class at a community college.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#283

Post by nicholas73 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 3:51 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #46

nicholas73 wrote: post #30

I had middling grades and not much extracurricular padding in high school but 99th percentile SAT (no prep other than a practice test). If it weren't for the SAT I would have had worse college options. School felt like it provided nothing more than read and regurg and my background did not promote anything extra. So personally I do not see how this decision evens the playing field.

There are a lot more cases which are the exact opposite. People who have done well in school, extra curriculars and more, but are held back by a meaningless test.

I don't have perspective, maybe, but what is exactly holding back someone who does well in school to score higher on a test? It's not like you don't get to retake it if it was a fluke.

If it's the test fee, just allow a retake for free like a gas station smog check offer.

Or, a college can bucket grades and test scores separately and just take whichever is higher.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#284

Post by csa » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:16 AM UTC

collegeburner wrote: post #132

_23sd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that "holistic" admissions in universities with highly competitive admissions are already disadvantaging groups that aren't culturally aligned with university administrators and their donors: Asian Americans, people from the South and rural areas regardless of race, and people brought up in religious households where most time spent on "extracurricular activities" is church-related. I personally think that pe…

Indeed, I briefly mentioned my service work with my church in my interviews as a part of an overview of me; it led to some of my larger accomplishments I wanted to highlight. In most interviews, this resulted in me getting a look like I'd just grown a third eye. This after reading web pages full of smiling, multi-cultural faces that lectured me on just how diverse and open-minded students and alumni were at these uni…

> when did attending church become unusual in America?

It’s not that common in elite liberal circles, especially in the NE corridor and California.

Note that some people in this group do go to church, but it’s just not widely advertised and is typically not a central part of their lives (e.g.(compared to some places where going to church for some sort of event 2-3 times on Sunday and 1-2 times during the week is a thing).

Also note that every Ivy League school was founded around a church and the church-based seminary/school. The same is true of many of the elite feeder prep schools. Note that there is a church prominently in the middle of all of the campuses.

That said, rightly or wrongly, churches are associated with anti-science folks who are anathema to most academics and academic types.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#285

Post by csa » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #224

bsder wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. This is completely mistaken. Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test . Simple prep will net you 200+ points right off the top. For example, generating a correct answer is almost always way slower on these kinds of tests than quickly removing wrong answers. K…

> Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test. You don't go in cold for the SAT. They give you enough free practice resources that anyone serious about taking the test should get those 100 points. Maybe to a practice test every weekend for a month leading up to the test. It's the tutoring where you have to invest a lot more time and money…

People do go in cold for these tests.

There are many people who come from communities who have sent precisely zero people to elite schools, and they have absolutely no idea how to prepare or how to be a strong candidate despite an abundance of information available on the internet.

Most people assume that straight As and a really good SAT score makes someone Ivy material, and that’s why they are often confused when folks who meet these criteria don’t get in.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#286

Post by solveit » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

mennis16 wrote: post #252

zamfi wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The relevant question is, do SAT scores correlate with wealth more or less than whatever [...] Well, no, because the SAT correlates with wealth while plausibly having claim on being an objective measure. When little Johnny gets an internship as his daddy's company, that obviously correlates with wealth, and admissions committees can discount it. When little Susie is on a groundbreaking paper from mommy's lab, that…

I think you're overstating how easy it is to discount for wealth in those other scenarios. At least when it comes to high school research experience, it has rarely been the case IME that a student got such a position directly because of their family, and certainly it is very rare that a student explicitly works in a parent's lab. Yes, some private high schools feed to quality summer research programs, but A) those sc…

I agree with everything you said and would like to add that I suspect

> I think SAT/ACT are bad indicators for the "elite" schools because they just saturate

this is a feature. Elite schools don't want to be able to tell the 0.5% from the 5%, because then they wouldn't be able to select for rich and solidly but not amazingly competent kids. They'll take the 0.01% olympiad medalists to fill their genius quota, then fill the rest of their cohort with solid, hardworking, well-connected kids who'll boost the prestige (and donations) of their institution more than the scrappy smart kid who aced every standardized exam with no support to speak of but probably won't (want to) learn the lingo and do the hustle to make it into McKinsey's.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#287

Post by csa » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:30 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #167

cameldrv wrote: post #56

This is very unfortunate. Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. The College board has made a free online prep course with Kahn academy that achieves similar results to professional coaching if the student puts in the time. The fact that a student is willing to put in that time should be an indicator that they're likely to be successful in college. Where more of the abuse is is i…

> Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. This is completely mistaken. Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test . Simple prep will net you 200+ points right off the top. For example, generating a correct answer is almost always way slower on these kinds of tests than quickly removing wrong answers. K…

I am not sure why you are being downvoted (I upvoted you), but your statement is largely correct.

1. 50 points per section (M/V) just for being familiar with the test is common for folks in the middle range of scores — say 400-600 per section. The improvements are less at the extremes.

2. Very basic test taking strategies are worth another 20-30 per section for pretty much everyone.

3. Actually study/review of targeted vocab and math will typically yield another 20-100+.

4. I don’t have as much data on this, but I personally think practicing sitting down on a Saturday morning and taking a high stakes test for x-hours in a sterile environment also increases the score 10 points or so. It reduces anxiety at a minimum.

I’ve seen scores go from 10xx-14xx with a 200+ point improvement in both skills over the course is about two months.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#288

Post by keeganpoppen » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:42 AM UTC

mamurphy wrote: post #258

abhorrence wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.

I read an article, that I can't find now, that convincingly argues that the SAT is one of the most equalizing factors for privilege. Impressive extracurricular, recommendation letters, and even grades are easier to buy than a higher SAT score. Prep helps, but prep has a limit. A Golf tutor, high tier equipment, admission to private school with a large golf team, etc. are more easily bought.

as are all the great college recs from all those various coaches, etc.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#289

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:49 AM UTC

csa wrote: post #285

dehrmann wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test. You don't go in cold for the SAT. They give you enough free practice resources that anyone serious about taking the test should get those 100 points. Maybe to a practice test every weekend for a month leading up to the test. It's the tutoring where you have to invest a lot more time and money…

People do go in cold for these tests. There are many people who come from communities who have sent precisely zero people to elite schools, and they have absolutely no idea how to prepare or how to be a strong candidate despite an abundance of information available on the internet. Most people assume that straight As and a really good SAT score makes someone Ivy material, and that’s why they are often confused when f…

[deleted]

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#290

Post by askafriend » Fri, May 22, 2020, 4:56 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #263

caseysoftware wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago, I was advising a group of undergraduates at a university and noticed that one was the President of their club. I thought that was cool and met another.. who was also President. Then a third. It turns out, they called all their members "president" so they could all declare they were a "president of X" on their resume and could talk about leadership. Creative way to game the system for $0.

Words have meaning and that amounts to a lie en masse. Because the word "president" has a specific meaning in the English language, what you describe is not "creative", it's "collusion".

The fact that it works is an indictment of the system, not an indictment of the kids.