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Georgism

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Re: Georgism

#281
post #168
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The status quo is a jawdroppingly fast and totally unprecedented reduction in poverty [0]. If my goal were to reduce poverty; my strategy would be to defend the status quo. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty

And yet, there are more people living in poverty than the entire global population in 1950.

there are a lot more people now than in the 1950's too.

As a proportion, is the poverty rate higher today than before? Are the currently poor today better off than the same relative level of poor in the 1950s?

Re: Georgism

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for assuming that it's an "off-the-cuff opinion", as opposed to what might have been gathered from a great deal of expert reading. I was trying to be polite -- unlike yourself, sadly. Why don't you educate yourself? Starting here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_tax As you can plainly see, land value tax is hardly the centerpiece of strategies to minimize distortion. In fact, it's left for the end of the…

I'm sorry, but offhandedly dismissing opinions like you did there triggers snippy reactions from me. That said your opinion is clearly not gathered by expert reading, because I've done that reading and it comes to a different conclusion. If you're interested in optimal taxation, I'd skip reading Wikipedia page and just go read the 2008 Mankiw literature review on "optimal taxation in theory and practice" instead. It…

I personally think the land value tax has a lot going for it, in contrast to a property tax. Social benefits are great.

But that has nothing to do with land value tax being the distortion-minimizing solution for optimal taxation -- which it isn't -- and is what I was originally responding to.

So I'm not sure you're even disagreeing with me.

Re: Georgism

#283
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The corporations should pay for the value of the land they use; so should the trusts who collect the land rent of our most valuable sites. OK, but why just the land? Trusts hold stock, too, that some long-dead person bought. Their heirs receive the dividends from that stock, for not having done anything whatsoever. By your logic, why should that not be taxed? What is so magical about land, that only that should be…

Land is finite. Capital can be created infinitely, by thriftiness of Labor. Land wasn't created by any individual or any corporation. (Minor, and not eternal, exception: Made Land, such as by filling in a swamp or dumping fill alongside a river. After a century or so, it stops being special, and is simply land, whose value comes from its location and the services that are provided to it. When the companies that issue…

If that's where the dividing line is, then bitcoin should be subject to the tax (since it's finite - only a finite amount can ever be created). Ditto collectibles - the finiteness of the supply is the point of collectibles. And ditto stuff like art created by now-dead artists.

So either you need to say that LVT applies to those kinds of assets, or you need a different explanation for why land and not other assets.

Re: Georgism

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The land most people live on does have market precedent so this would be unnecessary. This idea could still be workable for unimproved land

Then we're back to square 1: how do you determine the unimproved land value of improved land, so you can tax it?

It should be fairly simple to take the original price of installing the components of the house and calculate depreciation. Non-improved value = market value - depreciated home value

Obviously you'd have to keep tracking the improvements over time.

Re: Georgism

#285
post #26

> The main Georgist policy recommendation is a tax assessed on land value. Georgists argue that revenues from a land value tax (LVT) can be used to reduce or eliminate existing taxes (for example, on income, trade, or purchases) that are unfair and inefficient. Fine in theory, the reality is that you get nailed for property taxes AND income taxes AND sales taxes AND everything else. If a government CAN tax it, it wil…

Depends on the state. Several state have no income tax. New Hampshire lacks income and sales tax.

Re: Georgism

#286
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the degree that Coca-Cola is harming people, they owe something. Coke likely occupies a very valuable site in Atlanta, and perhaps has O&O bottlers on locally valuable sites, near centers of population, served well by transportation infrastructure that brings ingredients in and finished products to the customers. When communities start collecting the full value of those sites (and stop burdening the buildings and…

> The corporations should pay for the value of the land they use; so should the trusts who collect the land rent of our most valuable sites. OK, but why just the land? Trusts hold stock, too, that some long-dead person bought. Their heirs receive the dividends from that stock, for not having done anything whatsoever. By your logic, why should that not be taxed? What is so magical about land, that only that should be…

> OK, but why just the land? Trusts hold stock, too

The stock is taxed indirectly. Georgism holds that all wealth fundamentally comes from the land. This isn't completely true in the digital age but it is still true enough.

> Their heirs receive the dividends from that stock

If you tax income it never goes away. You just take a portion of whatever is there. If you tax wealth then the wealth is eventually drawn completely into the society. That's the fundamental difference. LVT is a tax on wealth.

Re: Georgism

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why tax capital instead if income? The reason to do so is because it reduces inequality and leads to a fairer society.

Well, if you tax potential capital (like house prices), then gentrification is the consequence. Think somebody living in a modest house mixed neighbourhood. Rich ppl buying houses there, property tax shoot so high (because the small house is now worth millions) that the person has to sell. As far as I understand that happened in Vancouver. Not sure if it leads to a fairer society. (of course one could argue it is fai…

Gentrification happens everywhere all the time without high property taxes. I'm not sure it is something we can or should avoid. A little inequality is ok and may function as a driver for growth, a lot of inequality had bad outcomes for everyone, even the rich.

I sincerely believe all types of capital should be taxed instead of income, the tax burden doesn't have to change but it should be redistributed a bit.

This would also deal with companies like Amazon and Apple who pay very little tax on profits - they'd pay a tex on assets instead like land or cash and pay a larger share.

Re: Georgism

#288

I've yet to see a single valid objection as to why LVT (Land Value Tax) should not be the primary tax, yet it's nowhere to be found in the political dialogue. Such a shame that the majority of the tax burden instead falls on the working class while the landowners get a free ride.

I mean... the objection is that it's incredibly arbitrary, greatly affecting one part of the economy and leaving others untouched. Why not a radio spectrum tax as the primary tax instead? Or an oxygen tax proportional to your lung size? Or a clean water tax, or a tax on the weight of your grocery consumption, or a tax on the weight of the garbage you produce, or the carbon you consume? All of those are valuable resou…

Any tax is "arbitrary" in the sense that there's no natural law dictating what should or should not be taxed, it is up to our best judgement. Carbon taxes and garbage taxes make sense, thus why I stated in my comment that LVT is logical as a primary tax, not the only tax.

Currently most federal tax revenue comes from wage/payroll taxes (65%). There is nothing less arbitrary about taxing wages than land value. In fact, taxing wages is more harmful as I will explain.

In general the more you tax something, the less of it you get. So by increasing income taxes, we discourage working - something that is presumably beneficial to society, while also encouraging more people to evade the law to avoid the taxes (working under the table). Land value however doesn't have any of these distortions because land supply is fixed and nobody creates it. Unlike income or sales taxes, land value tax is impossible to evade.

The reason to tax land value is because nobody is more entitled to the land and commons than anyone else, land value gains are pure unearned income, and taxing land has no negative distortions. By not taxing land value, we give a free ride to the landowning rentier class, and encourage the zero sum economic waste of playing land speculation, leading to housing booms/busts like the 2008 Great Recession and 1986-91 Japan housing bubble.

> Why should a low-margin supermarket which people need, occupying tons of space, pay huge taxes, while a tiny very profitable ultra-luxury boutique hotel pays only 5% of the taxes?

Land value is largely determined by location. That supermarket may have a lower tax bill than that boutique hotel in the city center if the supermarket is located in an area with lower land values. LVT promotes denser and more efficient development, and thus a supermarket could be located in the basement of a residential apartment complex or mall and pay less in land value taxes by sharing the tax burden with the rest of the land property.

Re: Georgism

#289
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land is finite. Capital can be created infinitely, by thriftiness of Labor. Land wasn't created by any individual or any corporation. (Minor, and not eternal, exception: Made Land, such as by filling in a swamp or dumping fill alongside a river. After a century or so, it stops being special, and is simply land, whose value comes from its location and the services that are provided to it. When the companies that issue…

If that's where the dividing line is, then bitcoin should be subject to the tax (since it's finite - only a finite amount can ever be created). Ditto collectibles - the finiteness of the supply is the point of collectibles. And ditto stuff like art created by now-dead artists. So either you need to say that LVT applies to those kinds of assets, or you need a different explanation for why land and not other assets.

Say bitcoin was the single tax. Then people would just not use bitcoin. That's why it wouldn't make for an effective tax.

Land is always in demand (the economic term being that demand is inelastic) since everyone needs it, and it is the source of all material wealth (agriculture, energy, commodities). Thus it is an effective tax.

I have yet to hear an argument for an alternative to land that is more sensible to tax.

Re: Georgism

#290
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would no more be able to make up their losses through rent increases than I could make up the loss of being charged extra for a loaf of bread at the supermarket by unilaterally raising my wages. One does not drive the other. Do you have research, or an evidence base, for this? > [...] it certainly was being run on behalf of landlords. It certainly was not.

>Do you have research, or an evidence base, for this? Economics by Paul Samuelson: https://archive.org/details/economics00paul/page/603 Do you have research that indicates the opposite is likely to be true? I'd be really interested in seeing what that is based upon. >It certainly was not. It's not unusual among for economists to do this subconsciously due to the incentive structure of the profession.

Try here (starting on page 39). Whether it answers your question - I have no idea. It was part of the research commissioned by the Inquiry to inform its work. The Inquiry's terms or reference were to review options for local government funding streams; LVT was one option among many.

[Links to PDF] https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/en/archive/20070411120...

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