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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#281

Post by craigsmansion »

dgzl wrote: post #255
aplummer wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true at all. You know people in other western countries are actually significantly more free than in the USA right? New Zealand is widely regarded as the most free country, and they also don’t have coronavirus.

I'd like some source material on your claim about freedoms, and New Zealand is a tiny island, very easy to control.

> I'd like some source material on your claim about freedoms

Let's start at the bottom then:

>> The other countries you speak about have already lost their rights, or never had them to begin with.

>and New Zealand is a tiny island, very easy to control

What you're saying here is basically: "even if you back it up with source material, I'm going to claim the US is more diverse/different so it doesn't really apply."

In other words, it's US exceptionalism both ways around, that is, circular reasoning. Why should anyone bother to try and have a good faith argument here?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#282

Post by mpweiher »

dgzl wrote: post #190
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…

> other countries you speak about have already lost their rights

Freedom House has the US at 86, most of Western Europe in the high 90s.

https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2020

While I am not going to say the US is an undemocratic hellhole, after all a score of 86 is respectable, saying that countries that score significantly higher "lost their rights" is unlikely to be correct.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#283

Post by deskamess »

joshuahughes wrote: post #221
Strilanc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for example, deaths being down instead of going down. Get the active cases down to a manageable number, then switch to test and trace while gradually opening up as advocated for in The Hammer and the Dance [1]. 1: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-th...

> Get the active cases down to a manageable number Isn't this the problem, the world over? That no government has actually baked into their stay-at-home orders what the specific metric is that unlocks the lockdown. People with mouths to feed are justifiably terrified as they see lockdown stretching out in front of them with no clearly defined endpoint, knowing that the keys to that lockdown are held by politicians wh…

I thought NY came out with a set of conditions for going out of lockdown for each county. I believe it was on HN front page within the last week.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#284

Post by fennecfoxen »

simonh wrote: post #209
dgzl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…

Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.

> By and large we have the rights we want.

If you have only "the rights we want" then your rights are subject to the whims of the majority.

In America our tradition of civil liberties protected the Illinois Nazis' freedom of speech as they marched through Skokie, celebrating the enemies of America who, within living memory, had waged war and killed millions of our citizens. The exercise meant as an affront to our nation and everything it values. We celebrated it, because if our worst enemies can have rights we don't like, then everyone can have rights.

In the UK, you can't even tolerate Dankula, and people think it's wonderful and good that he was fined for the nazi pug incident, and no one has really has rights unless they're popular. You'd think incidents like that would wave a few red flags, given that your nations' checkered moral history includes multi-century exercises in the deliberate oppression of your religious enemies.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#285

Post by dtwest »

techsupporter wrote: post #223
roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US.

There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans.

That being said, none of these countries are handling this well, it's just annoying to see the double standard.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#286

Post by makomk »

tolqen wrote: post #277
makomk wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the stupid, cynical partisan bullshit that America's press comes up with to try and kick Trump out of office is spilling over to other countries and screwing up our ideas about our coronavirus responses, though. For example, early on the CDC screwed up its coronavirus test, delaying the rollout of wider testing. The press saw blood and started blaming all the American deaths on the Trump administration failing…

> For example, in the UK our right-wing party is currently in power, which means that arguments that their lockdown rules are illegitimate and exceed their powers mostly come from supporters of the other, left-wing party. The justifications for why they're exceeding their powers actually look similar in many ways to the ones in this lawsuit. Not convinced you’ve even been following British politics then. The main cri…

As I said, this is mostly coming from supporters of the party. Though Starmer has been pushing for firm reopening plans sooner than is perhaps advisable, he has indeed mostly been doing risk-free back-seat driving that demonstrates how much easier life is when you don't have to actually pull of the things you're calling for. (For example, his latest thing is expecting the government to have information on what exactly is causing excess deaths that actual scientific experts reckon they won't be able to pin down any time soon.)

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#287

Post by DanBC »

dgzl wrote: post #264
DanBC wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is private to his home. It was the broadcasting that got him the conviction.

I think I'm missing some context. Filming isn't the issue then, broadcasting is? Seems like another asterisk on supposed "rights" that exist in countries that pretend they have them.

An article 10 freedom of expression defence was available to him, and the judge even asked him to make that defence, but he and his legal team chose not to use a freedom of speech defence.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#288

Post by 2rsf »

dtwest wrote: post #285
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

Why do you compare almost an entire continent to one country ? why not compare Sweden to NYC ?

Sweden is handling it, not great but not terrible and so is the US and many other countries.

On top of that there is a lot that we don't understand, for example why do many Mediterranean countries has low death rate even though the sick count is not low ?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#289

Post by 2rsf »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #244
apostacy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Sweden never had shelter in place orders, and they did not fare worse than France or Ireland.

Apart from the deaths in care homes

And especially among immigrants, that's a big "Apart" but still something that could have been done differently relatively easily if we only knew

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#290

Post by Shivetya »

Grakel wrote: post #3

What we should do is one thing. Saying the government can make us do it is something else entirely.

A government cannot violate its own rules by declaring an event unprecedented and that is what many officials have been doing.

I am all for lawful precautions but you have to give the people some credit. The lock downs and restrictions are incredibly arbitrary and in many cases nonsensical. you can have similar businesses and one is non essential or one has rules applied that don't apply to the other. this is what frustrates people the most, the vast majority know what to do. those who don't have always been there and always been a problem but it was easy to ignore them prior

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