The software industry's greatest sin: hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#281

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:42 AM UTC

> It's a disguised IQ test.

No. It also tests knowledge and familiarity with whatever technology is required. But yes, of course it tests IQ. What else is important? The way you look? The way you speak? Your background? I don't care about any of that. If you can express yourself in a technical context then you automatically satisfy all other requirements.

I like technical interviews. They remove bias. It means someone isn't going to get the job just because I "like" them or, worse, I want to fornicate with them. I've hired people of all ages, races, and other "identities" thanks to the technical interview.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#282

Post by mxcrossb » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:47 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #47

> Developer hiring is broken This seems to be a pretty popular opinion. It totally might be right, but it’s not my own experience, so I have a serious question because maybe I don’t know what’s happening out there with most hiring today - what are the broad-stroke outcomes that demonstrate that hiring isn’t working? Are there statistics that show that hiring has problems? All of the reasons given in the article are c…

I think the real issue is that people assume that the success of the company depends on the quality of the employees. This isn’t true, what dominates is the match between consumer and product. And you simply can’t predict the market that well, that’s the benefit of capitalism.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#283

Post by hinkley » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:47 AM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #236

josephg wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh sorry I wasn't clear. The reason is that successfully completing a simple programming exercise puts you in the top 15% or so of resumes that get sent in for most programming roles. When you apply for a company, they have to assume you aren't very good, because most people who apply aren't very good. (Because people with strong skills get snapped up, and people with weak skills spam their resume everywhere they can…

> (Because people with strong skills get snapped up, and people with weak skills spam their resume everywhere they can.) It's extremely saddening how prevalent this prejudice is. But what if I am still looking for work and companies literally don't reply to my applying to them? I might be the next John Carmack but if nobody gives me a chance (for reasons outside of my control and unrelated to my proficiency) then acc…

Or what if I’m being picky? I made a mistake of expediency in accepting my current job, and it’s not the first time. Several people I trust have been trying to talk me into applying to more places and turning them down if I don’t see what I’m looking for on their end. But they tend to overbook and one of the first things to go is your opportunity to ask questions.

Which is, really, as good a way to learn about someone as most of the techniques we try. You only have ten or fifteen minutes to ask the company questions. What did you hunk was worthwhile to expend that time on?

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#284

Post by austhrow743 » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:50 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #250

josephg wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know! Is it their job? The attention of senior engineers is the single most valuable, expensive and scarce commodity of a modern software company. The incentives are absolutely not aligned for most companies to make it worth their time to hire junior engineers. But obviously thats a problem - because as you say, where else will senior engineers come from? And I don't think we have a good answer here. The old…

There is the part where you give junior pay raise after he or she learns enough to get raise elsewhere.

If you're going to end up paying what it would cost you to hire the trained person anyway to avoid having your staff leave for higher wages, that heavily reduces your incentive to put a lot of resources in to training. Training + market rate compensation is more expensive than just market rate compensation.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#285

Post by TheOperator » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

earthtourist wrote: post #57

jackcosgrove wrote: post #22

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

I'm not sure how much I want to replace the pseudo-IQtest system with the system where we hire based on classism offset with racism.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#286

Post by sillyconvalley » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:53 AM UTC

google234123 wrote: post #225

AlwaysBCoding wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you hire a sculptor by asking them a random trivia question about the birthday of an Italian architect? FANG would.

I don't get what is wrong with expecting a candidate to have carefully read an algorithms book at some point in their lives. Most software engineering jobs expect a degree in CS, that implies 3-4 years of study. You should be able to remember important information related to CS.

Because it has very little relevance to 95% of software jobs.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#287

Post by triceratops » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

KungFuJohnny wrote: post #77

hirundo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you hire a sculpter by taking them to lunch and talking about tools but never seeing their sculpture?

Would you hire a doctor by insisting they perform surgery in front of you? Would you hire a lawyer by demanding they filling out legal paperwork in front of you?

I imagine doctors are rarely hired "cold" - they have some sort of prior relationship with the hiring institution or someone working there. E.g. they are already consulting there, or another doctor who works there has worked with them closely on a case etc.

Same for lawyers. You'd be targeting someone whom you've dealt or worked with in prior lawsuits (maybe they were the opposition counsel), deals (counsel for the other party), or complex cases involving multiple law firms working for the same side.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#288

Post by oreally » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

tictoc wrote: post #14

Is it actually an IQ test? Can you practice for an iq test like you can for an interview? I don't see it being that difficult to just grind on leetcode enough to snag a FAANG job.

Nope, it's more of a case of software engineers stroking their own egos. Grinding leetcode is the prime example of that - developers worshipping crystallized knowledge when the IQ test is supposed to test for how quickly someone can learn rather than relying on rote.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#289

Post by sillyconvalley » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #281

> It's a disguised IQ test. No. It also tests knowledge and familiarity with whatever technology is required. But yes, of course it tests IQ. What else is important? The way you look? The way you speak? Your background? I don't care about any of that. If you can express yourself in a technical context then you automatically satisfy all other requirements. I like technical interviews. They remove bias. It means someon…

This entire post would be incredibly concerning if I were your superior.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#290

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 8:14 AM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #214

kabdib wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that I needed to go back and study sql I once had an interviewer with two (TWO!) PhDs. He made sure that I knew he had two (TWO!) PhDs by handing me his business card as we sat down and casually remarking that he had two PhDs (see, right there, two of 'em, yupperoo). This behavior ("he's kind of jerk, and he has two PhDs") had been accurately foretold by the prior interviewer (that session had gone great). The…

No sane non-narcissistic person will ever fathom doing 2 PhDs. You do a PhD to learn how to think and research things. The only reason you would imagine doing a second one (assuming you're not someone who completely misunderstood what a PhD means), is so you can boast about it.

One of my professors had two PhDs: one in physics, and one in computer science. Considering that they worked on quantum computing, I’m not sure I could call it a bad choice.