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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#281

Post by tempestn »

jlokier wrote: post #258
tempestn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what a "materialist scientific viewpoint" is, but I'm not sure how one would seek to understand the world from other than a scientific viewpoint. You'd just be guessing based on intuition. If there's something that's real, it should be possible to investigate it in a scientific manner. For example, you could imagine a study comparing the effects of a real Reiki session to a fake one performed by an actor…

I agree with you (and upvoted). However wish to point out that, if the study gave a clear result, great you have something to work with, but if it gave a negative result, that wouldn't prove Reiki per se doesn't work. Instead it would prove that Reiki training is not necessary to obtain the same outcome in this setting. Which would also be great as something to work with. But because of logical possibilities like "ac…

Yes, I totally agree with the challenges you describe. And certainly, there are always going to be further avenues of study, whatever the result. For instance, I'm certainly not a Reiki expert, but my understanding is that chakras play a role. One could perhaps narrow the study I described above by having one practitioner intentionally misplace the chakras, while keeping everything else constant, to study specifically whether those locations are indeed meaningful.

If you wanted, you could also approach studying it from another direction, and try to measure the transfer of energy that supposedly occurs. There would be various ways to go about that. Obviously I seriously doubt that a rigorous experiment would actually show an energy transfer from the practitioner, but if it did, and no flaws could be found in the measurement techniques, that would be pretty interesting!

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#282

Post by wpietri »

zarmin wrote: post #269
wpietri wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying so. My response there stands. Neurotypical humans anthropomorphize things excessively. So much so that whole societies get built around perception of pervasive mind, from the Greek gods and the Hindu pantheon to Christian and Muslim single pervasive intelligences to Mesmer's magnetism and the Jedi force. A lot of minds just like the idea that minds are fundamental The obvious explanation for Radin's…

I disagree that these "fads" fade away due to lack of corroborating evidence and results. Has anything in the nonmaterial realm been conclusively disproved that you connect to the decline in popular interest? Academia has a built-in "knowledge filter" (confirmation bias, if you will), and ideas that run contrary to existing mainstream beliefs don't get funding, and indeed get labeled as pseudoscience or explained awa…

Fringe theories generally can't be conclusively disproven, so if that's your bar, it's an unachievable one. E.g., are infectious diseases really all caused by evil spirits? Maybe! Might it also be miasmas? [1] Could be! But now that we have ideas like "bacterium" and "virus", we we don't need those models to explain and treat diseases. So the "evil spirits" has mostly (but not entirely!) faded, and I think miasma theory is wholly dead.

Another thing that has faded away is the 1970s notion of ESP. E.g,, consider the history of Zener cards, which had at least two waves of popularity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zener_cards

In the 1970s ESP got a lot of attention. As did things like remote viewing. There was a definite fad for those concepts, and there was significant academic interest and funding. But nobody had any replicable results, so it all faded away, just like the UFO craze did.

And sorry, but as I said, I have no interest in Radin's work. As I said, you haven't grappled at all with the long history of fringe-science failure and the many commonalities between the failures. If you can't do that, you can't say why Radin might be different from all the similar guys I wasted time on in the past.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#283

Post by lilSebastian »

nindalf wrote: post #42
lilSebastian wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely interested, how did you get started with meditation?

Don’t know about that guy but I did it with Headspace. It’s guided meditation - he coaches you through it. I found it pretty helpful. Nowadays I do guided yoga with YouTube videos but I try to keep the lessons from Headspace in mind while doing them - clear my mind, focus on my breathing, if my mind wanders gently bring it back, think about how my body feels etc.

Thanks, headspace looks like a decent starting point.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#284

Post by _y5hn »

mcv wrote: post #223
_y5hn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is able to practice 2 while holding 1 as belief. The opposite is ironically possible.

2 is not a practice, it's a belief. It's still possible to practice something without believing it works, or without believing some theory behind the practice. People used to navigate by the stars because they believed the stars were fixed points on a dome that covered the Earth. The belief was wrong, but the practice worked.

Granted, 2 as stated, is about faith and open mindedness.

However, without experience or practice, there's not much basis. Faith should be != belief systems, which are really often just constraints and thoughts. If you try to think your way through life, you're missing the view for all your own thoughts.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#285

Post by jlokier »

conjectures wrote: post #276
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, this is par for the course. When I propose in measuring things like Reiki, or other forms of occult energy (notedly not: em, weak, strong, gravity), I get told that there's no way to measure directly. When I propose a way to test and potentially refine, I get told it's woo-woo and ignored. I'm also a reiki master.... And the CTO of a 2 person Signals Intelligence startup. I'd like to think I'm not conflating…

OK, so what's the mechanism? I have tense muscles in my back from WFH. A Reikist touches my back. What happens to relieve the tension? Does mana from their hands exert a force to directly extend the tense muscles? Does the mana stimulate the release of some chemical which relaxes the muscle? How does it work?

There are more possible explanations than could be fit in an HN comment. What are you looking for?

I think Reiki would say that "energy" assists you to heal your own back, but it doesn't specify how that healing takes place. In addition, I think Reiki distinguishes between the "energy" of the practitioner, and "energy" of the universe which flows via the practitioner, and ideally the latter assists you.

If we assume (for the sake of this discussion) the relief of tension in your back takes place and you are then looking for a mechanism, I can immediately think of numerous plausible explanations we could begin to explore, some of which we could measure, and others are beyond our capabilities to measure.

I'll give some examples of plausible:

- The tension is caused by signals in your neural system. The Reiki experience caused a change of data in your neural system due an information "covert channel" that exists between your system and the practioner, and your muscle tension is relieved.

- The tension is caused by chemistry in your muscle cells or intercellular matrix. The Reiki experience caused a change of gene expression due numerous hormonal changes that occur in your body when you are in that environment.

With both of those examples we have scientific study methods for looking into more details. E.g. for the first, it would involve looking at neural signals and the practitoner's neural signals and other factors such as position, timing etc. to detect hidden signal transfer. For the second we could monitor all the hormones we might think are relevant, or if we want to search more broadly than just markers we already know about, perhaps monitor some general molecular distribution signals such as chromatography or spectrometry.

There are numerous modern methods for looking for signal relationship, but also numerous confounding factors.

The list of plausible things to explore is vast though, so ruling out one or two doesn't rule out there being a mechanism. However as you explore mechanisms, if you find something that shows a signal relationship, then you can zoom in and look into plausible underlying mechanisms for that mechanism, and repeat. There is no bottom, but the more levels deep a signal is shown, the more people are likely to call it a mechanism rather than an effect.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#286

Post by dominotw »

ativzzz wrote: post #266
dominotw wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure if the patient is sufferring from anxiety Feeling nervous, restless or tense Having an increased heart rate Breathing rapidly (hyperventilation) Thats not what the article is talking about though. GP is talking about promoting some sort of "well being" thorough anxiety reduction. Has nothing to do if the person is sweating or breathing rapidly.

How about the other symptoms you didn't list? > Having the urge to avoid things that trigger anxiety > Feeling weak or tired > Trouble concentrating or thinking about anything other than the present worry > Having trouble sleeping Those are exactly the issues GP is talking about, article even mentioned anectodes of improved sleep.

> Having the urge to avoid things that trigger anxiety

wow :D.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#287

Post by conjectures »

jlokier wrote: post #285
conjectures wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so what's the mechanism? I have tense muscles in my back from WFH. A Reikist touches my back. What happens to relieve the tension? Does mana from their hands exert a force to directly extend the tense muscles? Does the mana stimulate the release of some chemical which relaxes the muscle? How does it work?

There are more possible explanations than could be fit in an HN comment. What are you looking for? I think Reiki would say that "energy" assists you to heal your own back, but it doesn't specify how that healing takes place. In addition, I think Reiki distinguishes between the "energy" of the practitioner, and "energy" of the universe which flows via the practitioner, and ideally the latter assists you. If we assume…

> I think Reiki would say that "energy" assists you to heal your own back, but it doesn't specify how that healing takes place.

Yeah, that's a problem. I'm literally asking what this mechanism is. A discipline not being able to take a clear stab at one is a serious yellow card (I appreciate the fact that you personally try below).

> The Reiki experience caused a change of data in your neural system due an information "covert channel" that exists between your system and the practioner, and your muscle tension is relieved.

So, how would this 'covert channel' work? If we can figure it out that is the beginning of scientific telepathy and would thus be a defining discovery of the 21st century.

> The Reiki experience caused a change of gene expression due numerous hormonal changes that occur in your body when you are in that environment.

This is, at least theoretically, falsifiable. Using a RCT between trained Reikists, a sports massage, random masseur, and baseline. It would be expensive.

It still leaves open the question of how the Reiki effects the gene expression. Of course, getting a regular massage or lying down for a bit is going to change your gene expression somewhat.

E.g. is the claim that the mana directly moves transcription factors to the right places so that more of certain proteins get transcribed?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#288

Post by mcv »

balfirevic wrote: post #232
mcv wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible that he can still hear the distant practitioner, and that the practitioner's words are enough to trigger the effect. If it even works without hearing the distant practitioner, then yes, go win that million dollars.

True. By "distant" I got the impression that the practitioner is in another building or even another city, but that might not be the case.

It might well be the case, but we've got telephones and even more advanced communication tech these days.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#289

Post by mcv »

fooblat wrote: post #236
mcv wrote: post #213

It's not so strange that Reiki works; it's a form of placebo effect. Placebos work, despite there provably being no active ingredient at work, and there being no reason at all for them to work except for the belief of the recipient . There's a good reason why new medicine needs to be proven to be better than a placebo in a double-blind study, and not merely better than no treatment at all with patients who know what…

No, placebos don't work. That is not what is meant by "the placebo effect" by doctors. There is no active ingredient in a placebo. That's why it has no effect on broken bones or cancer. A placebo doesn't have an effect on anything. However, patients that receive treatment that include a placebo medication and/or procedure (instead of the active version) often report improvement in their perception of their condition.…

And lowering anxiety and pain can help with recovery. That kiss is not just comforting and loving, it triggers the body to create endorphin, a natural pain killer.

And that is the effect of a placebo. It does have an effect despite not having any active ingredient, but it does have an effect on the perception of the recipient, and that can trigger all sorts of effects, like relaxation, endorphins etc. that help the patient.

Now you can pooh pooh these effects and claim that they are nothing, but they are real. And personally, I'm fairly sure that all positive effects caused by "alternative treatments" are all related to these sort of things.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#290

Post by klyrs »

Qasaur wrote: post #132
normalnorm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

>I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and powerful hide their extreme selfishness. This is what capitalism is in its essence - a complex decentralised pricing mechanism where every human's choices is taken into account on the free market. The problem is that it has been corrupted by cronyism which has indirectly destroyed the human element…

> This is what capitalism is in its essence

Whose capitalism? We (americans anyway) live in a corporate welfare state, and the market isn't even remotely "free."

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