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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

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Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#281

Post by salawat »

g_langenderfer wrote: post #263
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. So are you suggesting: - I create a toilet paper cartel with all my buddies - we hit surrounding area grocery stores with surgical TP buying - Hoard til prices rise - dump on muppet consumers - profit?? this is ridiculous

Yes, that is exactly what some people are doing, and what has quite a few posters justifiably angry. It may sound ridiculous to you, but That doesn't mean there isn't another person out there willing to do it.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#282

Post by bob33212 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #235
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to produce Production and logistics have gotten more expensive. That has happened economy-wide, and will only get worse as the pandemic exponentiates. They’ve also become less reliable, which is why we have hoarding. The purpose of price spikes is to incentivise production, to create slack in the system. (It also reduces the quantity demanded. Toilet paper at…

The delivery guy I talked said his route was easier on Friday because of all the Work from home. What increases in logistics costs are you referring to?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#283

Post by coredog64 »

yyy888sss wrote: post #264
gruez wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then they just return their inventory for a full refund.

Australian supermarkets are refusing refunds on all of these hoarded goods.

IMO, ensuring sufficient stock and refusing refunds will be a more thorough punishment than some half-enforced CA law on price gouging.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#284

Post by yyy888sss »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #218
zozbot234 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "create so much toilet paper that people can't hoard it." The fuck are we going to do with that much toilet paper. Stock it somewhere, and release it gradually over the following months, perhaps at a loss. Some hoarders will actually stock it as a reserve for the next emergency and brief price spike, which is socially beneficial behavior. Think of it as a kind of insurance. This would be more of a problem if we wer…

The problem is also with the industry itself, particularly if it's perishable. If this continues much longer, there's going to be a point (and perhaps it's already there? We don't get numbers about capacity - though I'd love to see it if there are numbers available!) where these companies reach peak capacity, and would have to incur significant investments in order to scale: investments that would become a detriment…

Manufacturer aren't stupid, they are aren't going to over invest. In Australia the the toilet paper companies just added shifts to manufacture 24/7.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#285

Post by chrisseaton »

koheripbal wrote: post #254
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

> all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory

How can toilet paper become worthless? You're always going to need to use it yourself even.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#286

Post by daenz »

KarlKemp wrote: post #171

I think that is best considered as a form of free speech. A is a statement of the value of your argument.

Imagine trying to be so edgy and clever with your kneejerk response that you accidentally reveal how unhinged and unsuitable you are for civil society.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#287

Post by jbay808 »

_bxg1 wrote: post #248
rahimnathwani wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product." People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity. They are buying because they anticipate scarcity, and want to either (i) be prepared, or (ii) profit from resale. Hoarding has caused shortages which, in turn, justify the original hoarding. This…

> People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/technology/coronavirus-pu... > On March 1, the day after the first coronavirus death in the United States was announced, brothers Matt and Noah Colvin set out in a silver S.U.V. to pick up some hand sanitizer. Driving around Chattanooga, Tenn., they hit a Dollar Tree, then a Walmart, a Staples and a Home Depot. At each st…

Another example:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/03/13/amazon-blocks...

> Ranga said that a six-pack of wipes, which might sell for $20 at Costco, could fetch four times that online, representing a “big opportunity.” He said the couple had spent about $70,000 on Lysol wipes and liquid cleaners over the past few weeks

I don't think someone buying $70k of Lysol is doing it because they're worried they'll run of enough for themselves!

And nobody would buy from them if there was stock remaining at Costco.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#288

Post by gruez »

yyy888sss wrote: post #264
gruez wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then they just return their inventory for a full refund.

Australian supermarkets are refusing refunds on all of these hoarded goods.

I wonder whether that's legal or not. Presumably they bought the goods before this thing blew up and the terms of sale at the time of purchase allowed for returns. Are stores allowed to retroactively change their return ploicy? Do they have a "we can deny returns for any reason" clause in their return policy? Is that legal?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#289

Post by gwright »

rtkwe wrote: post #215
anikan_vader wrote: post #16

From an economics stand point, I don't understand why the government should ban price-gouging. Doesn't this place an artificial price ceiling that will ensure a shortage of goods? I would personally rather stores have items such as food/water at marked-up prices than not at all.

Two problems; factories cannot surge up immediately and all of the actual gouging here is not actually making it to the manufacturers, it's people mass buying out stocks and reselling. So the supply side isn't actually seeing any increased price to increase their supply. The Econ 101 pro price gouging logic breaks down here because of that.

> factories cannot surge up immediately

Really? How about longer shifts, double shifts, weekend shifts? If you could suddenly make twice the profit on your product you would figure that out pretty quick! If you can't make any extra profit, why bother?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#290

Post by jbay808 »

koheripbal wrote: post #254
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

People are saying this like they just walked out of an econ 101 class.

It's expensive to tool up your production line for extra production when you'll just have to shut it down again a few weeks later as the surplus makes its way through the system. Why would a toilet paper plant operator do that? They know that average consumption of toilet paper hasn't increased whatsoever.

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