Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#281

Post by brnt » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #233

brnt wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please demonstrate this cost and how children would be paying for it. Please use sources.

If you want both parents to be independent, then (for the vast majority of people who are not very wealthy) of course both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed. Do you need a source for that? Both of those take time, and that's time taken away from the children, which parents do not have in abundance. Do you need a source for that?

You did not answer my questions nor support your claims.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#282

Post by nisuni » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #89

nisuni wrote: post #54

Thanks but no thanks. When I’ll have a baby I‘ll have to breastfeed, after having carried him for nine months, and having him exit through my private parts. Give me my extended, non trasferrable maternal leave! Edit: since some people are misunderstanding my point: extending the paternal leave costs money. I would rather prefer those money being spent on more maternal leave.

Nobody is taking that away. This is about giving the same amount of non-transferrable leave to both mothers and fathers.

Why not increasing the maternal leave then? I would highly prefer that!

Some money is spent into this, I would rather see the money being spent to increase mother’s leave.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#283

Post by the_af » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #223

the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

> and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work.

I don't buy this narrative, sorry.

Also, of course women who want to stay at home taking care of the babies while the father is less involved in child-rearing are perfectly welcome to do it. It's just that I think it's unfair that society expects this to be the norm.

edit: I also think you're conflating "women who want to have a career and be entrepreneurs" with "mothers and fathers who want to share the load (and joy) of being parents". It's not necessary for the mother to want to be an entrepreneur for this; it's just necessary for the father to take his share of the load.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#284

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #274

ceilingcorner wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation. To state the obvious fact that men and women are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (in general, as a sex) is tantamount to heresy, I guess because gender roles are associated with perceived past injustices. > Personally, I find that this "gender equality" push winds up being extraordinarily anti-woman in…

> It is still unclear to me how forcing both parents to work full-time jobs is beneficial for anyone other than corporations. The point of these measures is not letting/forcing both parents to work. It's to make both genders equals in the eye of the capitalist employer. So, depending on the job and remuneration of the parents, maybe just one can work. And this working parent can be the mother.

In theory, yes, but unless the cost of supporting a family can be done with one job (as it used to be), then this is kind of a moot point. Both parents can choose to work part-time, but typically that means they'll be in poverty.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#285

Post by rglullis » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #264

rglullis wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"gives" after taking almost double in taxes. And I will surely have more years paying tons of taxes than paternity leaves. Forgive them, Milton, for they don't know what they are saying.

Never fail to mark a net gain for humanity as financially ineffective obstacle. You know there exist some middle ground between dysfunctional socialism and brutal capitalism? Those places are comparably a paradise for common folks like most of us. To be treated with respect like a human being and having overall a good life is still a privilege in 21st century.

> You know there exist some middle ground between dysfunctional socialism and brutal capitalism?

This is so far from the point of my comment, it really illustrates how people will view and comment based on the their preconceptions and worldviews before any attempt at rational thought.

I am not saying that the social program is bad. What I did try to point out is that there is no real "giving" of anything. That is all. We cool?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#286

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #254

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This doesn't jibe with my experience at all. My wife is quite enjoying being at home with the baby, and gets to spend as much time outdoors as she cares for, even in the harsh Canadian winter." But that isn't true for all mothers. If a mother needs to socialize with other adults, or wants to chill with a drink with her friends, or go to a book club, etc. having a child that she must be solely responsible for 24/7 ca…

We're not talking about all mothers, we're talking about giving individuals the opportunity to make the choices that work for them.

Yes, and I am indicating that, to the idea that 24/7 childcare indoors to be the optimal case for women as according to one's own lives, I am arguing that may not be the case due to social isolation.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#287

Post by blub » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

Nimitz14 wrote: post #214

the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.

The baby may reject the bottle, or accept it only later or alternate between accepting and rejecting it.

It's not possible to generalize about what will happen, but probably all fathers should at least give it an honest try.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#288

Post by blub » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #223

the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

That's an interesting thesis which I have heard before. Any studies or books which elaborate it?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#289

Post by duxup » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

I worked for a company based in the valley a while back.

They announced their paid parental leave policy one year to much fanfare.

That was handy as we were having my second child.

I filled out the paperwork for the parental leave and .... they told me I didn't qualify because I didn't live in California... so unpaid leave for me it was.

Government policy is the only way to go with this stuff. Otherwise it will be a benefit only available to a few.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#290

Post by gylterud » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

radicalbyte wrote: post #200

gylterud wrote: post #109

When we had our first child (in Sweden), we could divide the time (13 months total) freely between the two of us. Then we got some extra money if each of us took more than 30% of that time. I think they stopped with the money bonus, but it was really great for us. We are now having our second child (now in Norway), and while the father quota is great, they now require the mother to be "in activity" (i.e. working) if…

This should be the norm in all of the developed world! As a freelancer I took a self-funded three-month break (it just finished) when our third child was born and it has been amazing. I wish that I'd been in a position to do the same for my other two children too. Firstly, we're trying hard to close the gender pay gap. Giving fathers the same amount of free time as the mothers goes a long way here. Secondly, it's fan…

> Thirdly, the cost is not large. Businesses are already absorbing the lost productivity caused by the fathers being exhausted. This formalizes it.

Exactly! And in both Norway and Sweden you can be part time on leave. For some time I had 25% leave, which meant that I was working, but could go early when tired from a long night of baby cries or stay at home one day when my wife needed to get something else done. And this time I will be on 80–90% leave, which means I am at home, but can pass by the office once a week to catch up with my students.