Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#281

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #203

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't freely associate. Facebook employees who want to collectively bargain should be allowed to. That's just free association. They just shouldn't be allowed to prevent other employees from not unionizing and working without the union. And then, lots of people can choose not to unionize. Personally, I think few FBers will unionize. And then perhaps you could negotiate per…

If a union can't form an exclusivity agreement with a company, then all exclusivity agreements between any type of organization should be banned. That would be true freedom of association.

Right-to-work laws just take away the right of workers to negotiate on the same terms that businesses do.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#282

Post by iguy » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #153

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> Standardizing crediting would be one close to my heart. Oh hell yeah. I did 3+ years on a title, nearly killing myself to ship it. When I realized that doing that much OT was doing to my personal relationships, health and sanity I left with a generous transition ~8mo before ship(including tossing 2.5mo of PTO because they didn't have to pay it out and I could never take it). Listed under "special thanks" as well, i…

> it would have cost them nothing to do proper crediting

How much does this matter? (Really asking, I know nothing of this industry, nor film.)

What I mean is, beyond enjoying seeing your name, does it make a big difference in landing subsequent jobs to have your name publicly listed at this size / under this heading / etc. on past work? Do companies hiring you go and check what you say against the credits, or how does this work?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#283

Post by exolymph » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

Those people don't generate $1,620,000 with their labor once they leave Facebook. That number comes from being plugged into the Facebook machine, part of its system. Which is why Facebook gets the revenue and the employee gets a salary.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#284

Post by unapologetic » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #250

legitster wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a relative who is a Teamster and pays $16k in Union dues a year. He said the math on his benefits only works out for him if he works for more than 15 years in the same position. Obviously different for different unions, but the vast majority of benefits in most unions go to those with seniority.

What!? That is over 60× the membership cost of UNITE (the largest British union). Apparently, comparisons between the US and Europe don't work here either. Maybe this is because "union shops" are allowed in the USA. Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights forbids them (the right to free association is taken to provide the right not to associate). https://unitetheunion.org/why-join/join-unite/contributio…

https://teamster.org/content/straight-facts-teamster-dues

always question anecdotes about "my friend had a bazillion dollar bill from xxx" when people are pushing an anti-xxx agenda.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#285

Post by digsy » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #272

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

I don't really understand this obsession with credits in the game dev industry. There's no credit list in GMail for example, and yet everyone is fine with it?

Video games are part tech, part art and part storytelling. So in a sense they are closer to movies than pure software.

That distinction is where some of the wish for credit comes from I believe.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#286

Post by unapologetic » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

AndrewGaspar wrote: post #245

jahaja wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners.

If we're comparing to "Europe": - EU Youth Unemployment Rate: August 2019 https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemploymen... - US Youth Unemployment Rate: November 2018 - December 2019: https://www.statista.com/statistics/217448/seasonally-adjust...

Is that the same unemployment rate where the truth depends on how hard you look and who you support?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#287

Post by unapologetic » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #173

jahaja wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners.

We could always compare unemployment rates in the US to those in France for a straight forward comparison to a European country. Then we could compare full-time employment rates for another straight forward comparison to a European country. The American experience is that labor can and occasionally has set itself up for massive failure in the past. The idea that there's literally nothing to lose fails a basic sanity…

What do you think you will actually lose by forming a union?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#288

Post by vvanders » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #282

vvanders wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standardizing crediting would be one close to my heart. Oh hell yeah. I did 3+ years on a title, nearly killing myself to ship it. When I realized that doing that much OT was doing to my personal relationships, health and sanity I left with a generous transition ~8mo before ship(including tossing 2.5mo of PTO because they didn't have to pay it out and I could never take it). Listed under "special thanks" as well, i…

> it would have cost them nothing to do proper crediting How much does this matter? (Really asking, I know nothing of this industry, nor film.) What I mean is, beyond enjoying seeing your name, does it make a big difference in landing subsequent jobs to have your name publicly listed at this size / under this heading / etc. on past work? Do companies hiring you go and check what you say against the credits, or how do…

Yes, very much so.

First game I got credited on opened up a ton of doors because everything in that industry is based on what you've done and not your qualifications.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#289

Post by throw_14JAS » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

unapologetic wrote: post #244

scarejunba wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't freely associate. Facebook employees who want to collectively bargain should be allowed to. That's just free association. They just shouldn't be allowed to prevent other employees from not unionizing and working without the union. And then, lots of people can choose not to unionize. Personally, I think few FBers will unionize. And then perhaps you could negotiate per…

> They just shouldn't be allowed to prevent other employees from not unionizing and working without the union. Yes they should. Repeal all right to work laws.

How do you justify taking away my right to choose where and how I work?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#290

Post by inetknght » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #59

criddell wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?

Those unions evolved in pretty different- Professional athletes are typically in a monopsony (single buyer) situation, whereas the Hollywood situation evolved during the studio system era that was much more cartelish than tech today. It's possible that workers joining unions will make life even better than today, but the previous high-paying occupation unions evolved in different circumstances that might matter.

> the Hollywood situation evolved during the studio system era that was much more cartelish than tech today.

You don't think FAANG are cartelish?