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The myth of the teacher pay gap?

nationalaffairs.com

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Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#281
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're generally salaried so they're paid a fixed amount no matter how much they work, with that amount normally negotiated by their union. All data indicates that teachers are working less than 40 hours a week on average, which makes me believe that the ones putting in 50+ hours are a vocal, tiny minority.

I think it depends on the grade and/or subject you're teaching. My wife has taught HS English for a decade and the 45-50+ hr weeks has been the norm for her and her colleagues. I have the impression (from my wife and her coworkers) that it's much easier for elementary and middle school teachers to work the contracted hours and not bring their work home with them. High school just comes with a lot of extra baggage too…

I can see high school English being more time consuming than average, and certainly more than elementary school.

I've never understood why subjects and student age aren't considered in teacher pay scales across the board. My experience is limited, but I've never seen an instance where anything other than time and credentials (generally degrees) were considered.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#282

> (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data. See, this is where things go wrong. So they've got mean wage figures which are constructed both on a fact (hourly wage) and an assumption (work…

I hardly think you can refute an in-depth analysis that comes at the issues from many different angles based on a single line.

They do compare how many hours teachers work to other workers and also analyze the issue along multiple other lines that have nothing to do with hourly wage.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#283

> (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data. See, this is where things go wrong. So they've got mean wage figures which are constructed both on a fact (hourly wage) and an assumption (work…

I used to work in fast food. I would gladly get paid less per hour for my current software development job than I was back then (as long as it was above making rent). It was a much more draining job and it's effects consumed every waking minute during work days and spending off-days just recovering. That kind of job should have risk bonuses. Significant ones. Most people just can't do that and pursue anything else. G…

I agree about fast food work being draining. Even on the hardest day, I've never left my software engineering job at the end of the day feeling half as exhausted as I did at my high school fast food jobs. From standing for 8 hours a day to the incessant churn of customers to the insults, condescension, and unreasonable demands that some of those customers would make, it is a demoralizing position.

If salary was determined based on the emotional and physical toll a job takes, I feel like a fast food worker would make more than I do as a software engineer.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#284

> (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data. See, this is where things go wrong. So they've got mean wage figures which are constructed both on a fact (hourly wage) and an assumption (work…

you forgot 9 weeks off every summer, paid holidays, no contributions into social security, and some get classroom aids, they don't design curriculum (it's purchased), throw in common core for good measure....

What does common core have to do with how they get compensated?

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn’t find a citation in the article for those statistics, but they don’t smell right as an argument for teachers being oversupplied: - If the argument is that teacher pop growth outpaced student pop growth, therefore there’s an oversupply of teachers, that includes an implicit assumption that the 1987 ratio was correct. There’s no reason to assume that’s the case. - There’s been a great deal more attention paid…

> If the argument is that teacher pop growth outpaced student pop growth, therefore there’s an oversupply of teachers, that includes an implicit assumption that the 1987 ratio was correct. There’s no reason to assume that’s the case. Yes there is. Total cost in K-12 is up 180% since 1970 and results in Math, Science and Reading are basically flat. Employees are up almost 100%. If you almost triple inputs while output…

No, bringing in overall spending is a completely different conversation that’s much wider in scope than parent’s argument about supply and demand.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#286
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn’t find a citation in the article for those statistics, but they don’t smell right as an argument for teachers being oversupplied: - If the argument is that teacher pop growth outpaced student pop growth, therefore there’s an oversupply of teachers, that includes an implicit assumption that the 1987 ratio was correct. There’s no reason to assume that’s the case. - There’s been a great deal more attention paid…

I believe the point is not that 1987 was an ideal ratio of teachers to students, but the relative increase in supply is limiting wage growth.

The question is, relative to what? If teachers were under supplied to begin with, that wouldn’t be the case. I’m not saying that either answer is correct, just that the quoted figures aren’t actually good evidence.

This is literally the argument: “Back in the day, there were x teachers and y students. Now there are 1.6x teachers and 1.2y students. That’s too many teachers!” See the problem?

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difficulty of the job is relative to your talent set. My favorite teacher was my AP calc teacher in high school. She only graded during her planning session, never worked overtime, let us not only fix a broken classroom computer that the school basically abandoned but we also take turns playing GTA on it during lectures. Almost everyone in the class passed the AP exam. She was in MENSA and left a lucrativ…

How much preparations and grading there is depends on the subject (among other things). And mathematics is where you get most for free for just being smart and knowing your subject. In (good) mathematics lessons, very little of the time is spent explaining the theory. Instead a lot time is spent doing exercises – both the teacher demonstrating and the students trying it out them selves. At that point the teaching bec…

Grading a multiplication test in grade school might be quick and mechanical but grading trig and calculus is not.

>"Oh, if the teacher were better at their job they would have to work a lot less".

I'm 100% saying exactly that. This is true of basically every profession. Some people are more effective/efficient/faster than others.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#288

> (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data. See, this is where things go wrong. So they've got mean wage figures which are constructed both on a fact (hourly wage) and an assumption (work…

you forgot 9 weeks off every summer, paid holidays, no contributions into social security, and some get classroom aids, they don't design curriculum (it's purchased), throw in common core for good measure....

>9 weeks off every summer Unpaid. Also depending on location, it's more like 5 weeks >paid holidays No more than required by law >no contributions into social security Must be dependent on location. Here in Maine, my mother contributes to social security but is not eligible for benefits from it unless she retires after 30-35 years of teaching. >and some get classroom aids That's a laugh, teachers don't even get sufficient budget to buy school supplies for their classroom. >they don't design curriculum (it's purchased) Untrue. Maybe dependent on location, but once again, here in Maine, teachers are responsible for designing, building, and running their own curriculum, on a per-subject basis. >throw in common core for good measure Not sure what you mean by that

The vast majority of info about teaching as a career will vastly differ based on location. For example, it is my understanding that teaching in California is closer to a $60k salary, while here in Maine, the majority of schools are more like $40k after 20 years accrued. You get about 3 personal days a year, with just a bit more sick time, meaning teachers often have to just work sick. Teachers are also required to keep their education up with taking college level classes every few years, as well as meeting other requirements (which is a good thing) often out of their own pocket (which is bad thing). You start work not after 7:45, and are "done" by 4, unless you actually do your job as a teacher and want to not be fired, in which case you are done after 7pm. You teach hundreds of students, and often end up being the sole support figure for tens of students per year, basically adopting them and trying to contribute as much as you can to their lives. Everything you do, inside and outside of work, is scrutinized by the entire town. Every little twerp of a kid is an angel to their parents, and 80% of the parents will blame you for any problem they create. Imagine the kind of hate that the lowest retail worker gets, now imagine you went to college for 6ish years and still get that hate.

The single upside (again, here in Maine) is really really good, 100% employer paid healthcare, though no dental. Pretty much the only reason my dirt poor family didn't die on the street.

If school teachers worked how much they are paid, America would have collapsed 50 years ago.

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#289
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're generally salaried so they're paid a fixed amount no matter how much they work, with that amount normally negotiated by their union. All data indicates that teachers are working less than 40 hours a week on average, which makes me believe that the ones putting in 50+ hours are a vocal, tiny minority.

I think it depends on the grade and/or subject you're teaching. My wife has taught HS English for a decade and the 45-50+ hr weeks has been the norm for her and her colleagues. I have the impression (from my wife and her coworkers) that it's much easier for elementary and middle school teachers to work the contracted hours and not bring their work home with them. High school just comes with a lot of extra baggage too…

Middle school (5-8) is where the work for students (and therefore teachers by necessity) starts to pile on

Re: The myth of the teacher pay gap?

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never known a decent teacher that puts in less than fifty hours per week, and a typical week is more demanding than all but the most stressful weeks I've worked in software.

I've always wanted to be a teacher, still do. But their job is like 10x harder than mine and pays 1/10th the price, so as much as I'd enjoy it and I think I'd be good at it, it just seems insane. Good thing there's always a budget to build newer fancier schools, but not to pay teachers livable wages, cause that makes sense.

I think it's hyperbolic to claim teachers don't make 'livable' wages. In the U.S. median teacher salary is north of $60k [0]. Maybe there's an argument that this is too low to be fair but when the median U.S. wage is below $32k/yr it's hard to make the case it's not livable

Sometimes HN takes too much of a SV-centric view, especially in terms of wages.

[0] https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/25-2031.00

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