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U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

reuters.com

281–290 of 319 posts

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is a label slapped on violence that breaks some arbitrary rules someone thinks ought to be followed. Were the founding fathers terrorists? The British sure thought so... You can be the gatekeeper of that word all you want, just know that you're playing that role.

The British thought the founding fathers were rebels, which is not the same thing as terrorists(not that they had that word to use anyway)

Nope, rebel is the positive (or at least neutral) version of terrorist, the terrorist for your side.

This exact oratory slight of hand is used constantly in media, virtue signaling through word choice.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#282

I wonder why, even though we generally try to be skeptical of the news, I’m not seeing many comments here that question whether what this article is saying is even accurate. How exactly does the reporter know which people are IS fighters? Is there some notion that militants don’t ever also farm? Also in these comments there seems to be a huge double standard. The idea the United States might accidentally kill some ci…

Think the size of this incident prompted immediate reporting, so I'd trust it to be fairly accurate in scope, but typically statistical sourcing is done by UNAMA (cited in article) and I'd consider them authoritative and accurate.

To your point, typically the casualty verification (which UNAMA is tasked with) takes a very long time. Here's an example of three UNAMA reports stating three widely different casualty figures for aerial operations in 2011:

- 2011 report: deaths and injuries at 305 (pg 24)

- 2012 report: deaths and injuries at 353 (pg 31)

- 2014 report: deaths and injuries at 415 (pg 94)

These reports were released years apart and reflect revised figures for 2011. It simply takes that long to verify accounts and corroborate reports, reconcile conflicting information. It will take years to get a definitive confirmation for this incident.

Here's something seen in the UNAMA reports that's more harrowing than drone weapon releases mentioned in the article. When a drone operator merely reports activity, a typical response to it is that the local forces send out a team to investigate the location. They do this at night. Vehicles pull up, spotlights come on and distorted loudspeakers come on shouting screams at people to stay inside and wait. Disoriented and confused civilians, trying to make sense of the noise, do what any normal human beings do, which is go outside to see what this is all about. At that point, even children get shot because they're contravening instructions. They become a number in a report.

This is death by process.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#283
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... no, they’re worth the same. Hence morally vs practically. The difference is that killing some third world farmers doesn’t cause a war between first world powers. Alternatively if Yemen rebels attack Saudi Arabia, that’s bad. If Iran does it, everybody in a thousand mile radius starts sweating.

> Alternatively if Yemen rebels attack Saudi Arabia, that’s bad. Why is it bad? I mean, after they've been at the receiving end of Saud's war machine, why can they not retaliate? They sure did not cause as much boodshed (zero, just material damage) as the Sauds have caused them.

I get that you have a gripe with Saudi geo politics. And it’s probably one I agree with, but I’m really just trying to say that blowing random innocents can vary in the severity of repercussions and that you’re not “falling for propaganda” or following racist ideas if you acknowledge this- and that moral and practical concerns are separate things.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#284
post #82

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This seems to surprise everyone though, and I don't understand why. I remember in the early days of our being in Afghanistan, there were a few media pieces reporting that they remembered the last time the British were there, 100 or 150 years ago. The tone was very much that it was somehow surprising the Afghans brought this up again. Yet Britain and the US are built on national history, myths and memories. The US has…

The British oppressed the Irish for 800 years with a systematic destruction of culture and contribution to genocide which halved the population and then recently had the audacity to assume Ireland would be allies during Brexit negotiations.

We have a PM who is filmed responding to a protester in front of dozens of press and TV cameras at an event with "there's no press here", while hearing constant shutter clicks audible in the background. That he's completely tone deaf dealing with the EU, our neighbours or electorate shouldn't be the least bit surprising.

That said, since Irish independence there has been a good degree of desired closeness between the two countries, not least the passport free freedom of movement and voting, which survived the worst of the NI violence. Looking back that can seem surprising. Record numbers of Brits have been applying for Irish passports (a remarkably high number are eligible) since the Brexit vote.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to imagine the reaction if it happened here. Imagine that, say, China blew up 30 Americans in the US with a missile. And their reaction was, “sorry, my bad, I thought they were terrorists.” Can you imagine the response? I think we’d have a nuclear war before the end of the day.

Americans don't behead innocent people in the streets and don't relentlessly kill people just because they don't share the same religious or political beliefs. Your comparison is absurd, ignoring the politics of China launching a missile at American soil. The US War in Afghanistan is 17 years old. There were two suicide bombings just three days ago, each killing over 20 people. Imagine a group of people who want to k…

Why is my comparison absurd? Let’s say that the Chinese drone operators thought they were targeting an ISIS cell. (This is, in fact, what I had in mind.)

Anyway, I don’t have to imagine. There are, in fact, lots of people in this country who want to kill people for having the wrong birthplace or sexual orientation. One of them massacred twenty people just a few weeks ago.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We wouldn’t accept the excuse because what China would be fighting for in your hypothetical would be bad, while what we’re fighting for is good. You can’t just transpose the hypothetical to suggest hypocrisy because there is none.

I didn’t say what China was fighting for. Why are you so sure it’s bad?

Because they’re a communist regime?

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The site doesn’t differentiate between terrorists and civilians killed, so I don’t get the point? It’s not like Pakistan is running low on terrorists or the state intelligence service ISI isn’t sponsoring their activities.

> The site doesn’t differentiate between terrorists and civilians killed It does[0]. > It’s not like Pakistan is running low on terrorists or the state intelligence service ISI isn’t sponsoring their activities. I don't know how to respond to that, since there isn't a question in there, just a belligerent statement. I suppose the best way is to simply not engage. [0]: http://pakistanbodycount.org/definitions.html

I saw the definitions page but my point is about the tally number which seems to be conflating everything together[1] (adding dead terrorists into the tally), which I think is disingenuous.

Compared to, for example, https://www.iraqbodycount.org, which only counts civilian deaths (which I assume based on the name is the inspiration for this page).

[1]: http://pakistanbodycount.org/drone_attack.php

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#288
post #189

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Someone should correct me if I am wrong, but military training is mostly about obeying orders and desensitizing about what's going on the receiving end of your actions. I have watched Restrepo on Netflix and found one thing interesting, that biggest thing soldiers have missed in their civilian lives is the adrenaline/joy rush of a shoot-out, no matter how dangerous it is. Paradoxically most of the interviewees are cl…

I usually avoid these conversations about the military, because it's such a hot button issue. I have many family members who were/are in the military. I have one family member who died in WW2, buried in a US cemetery in France. > but military training is mostly about obeying orders Not at all. The military wants individuals to think for themselves. Strictly obeying orders would never get the job done. In fact, the la…

>By the time a soldier is killing the enemy they are also going to be receiving fire.

I think this is what concerns people so much about the drone strikes. Clearly drone strikes are one sided fire fights. And even by the government's own statistics their signal to noise kill ratio is abysmal. This is categorically different than a soldier on the ground returning fire even if we might disagree with the soldier having been sent there in the first place.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How exactly does the reporter know which people are IS fighters? Is there some notion that militants don’t ever also farm? Guilty until proven innocent, right?

I think the parent is saying "how do reporters have better intel than the military?" Then of course it might be the case here that civilians were targeted, by mistake or on purpose. But the parent point is quite valid.

A more apt question: why does the parent think the reporters claim to have better intel than the military?

It is baffling how poorly many people here read.

Re: U.S. drone strike kills 30 pine nut farm workers in Afghanistan

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say what China was fighting for. Why are you so sure it’s bad?

Because they’re a communist regime?

So anything they fight for must be bad no matter what it is? Even if they’re hunting down ISIS and al Qaeda members just like we are?
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