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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#281
post #6
post #2

Related earlier post: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inac…

I didn’t follow the story. Was Stallman taken out of context? Anyway, he probably should have know better than to weigh in. One’s well thought out response and subtle points can often turn out to have a few holes. In fact... “If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged”

At least in the case of the Daily Beast article by Blake Montgomery, enough context was included that a plain reading of the quoted material makes clear that the surrounding text and headline were radically incorrect. Journalistic malpractice if not deliberate libel. The author has since doubled down. I, for one, won't be believing a damned thing written by the man in the foreseeable future. I encourage you to make your own determination.

Stallman defended Minsky. Judge him for what he said. Don't judge him for a defense of Epstein - he unambiguously condemned Epstein with the rest of us.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Stallman is tactless, and I've thought that for years. That email didn't change anything I thought about him. I also think that being tactless is not a moral crime. It's aesthetically offensive and counterproductive from a leadership perspective, but being a bad leader doesn't make somebody a bad person.

Saying that Minsky having sex with underage girls would be morally okay is more than tactless - it is immoral.

Except he didn't say anything like this.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#283
post #244

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

The conditions that apply to an "Ethics tutorial in a philosophy paper" aren't universally applicable, and that isn't a sign of something being wrong. It took me a while to understand this myself. Suppose you wished to discuss "ethical problems" in a tutorial, people can do that, and in some other (limited) environments too. You might - to invoke a particularly awful idea - like to hypothetically explore whether what…

Thank you for this. A lot of people here don't seem to get that who says a thing, and in what context, matters a great deal.

Even though Stallman wasn't a professor, and was "just" a Visiting Scientist, he maintained an office on campus, and was afforded a certain level of status by MIT. With that status comes an amount of responsibility. Making "philosophical" arguments that appear to defend abhorrent positions, regardless of the intent behind those arguments, is not in line with that responsibility.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe Stallman's statements indicate he's a pedophile, not merely somebody with a long and established history of being tactless? Because I'd say there is a hell of a lot more evidence that he's tactless due to being neuroatypical. Maybe that makes him a bad leader, but it surely doesn't make him evil.

His statements aren't merely socially unappropriated, they are grossly logically incorrect.

First, actually one couldn't know are them correct or not, considering heavy emotional involvement of the opponents. Second, the concept of the childhood is quite misdefined. Third, it is very hard to check correctness of such psychological statement, considering the large amount of influencing factors. Fourth, what do you mean by 'grossly wrong'? Is '2x2=5' grossly wrong, or just a bit wrong? Or what about Borsuk's conjecture? Is it grossly wrong, or may be it is wrong in some different manner ? As Richard Feynman said, nature can't be fooled; but when one trying to play a role of nature's Spanish inquisition, presuming that he or she couldn't be wrong him- or herself, it afaik worsens the thing a lot.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#285

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

This is a quote from an interview, where Norman Finkelstein discusses the subject of thought policing. "What he should have done was in my opinion deliver one policy speech. 'This is where we stand on antisemitism. This is where we stand on the mechanisms for dealing with antisemitism in our party. Case closed.' The other major mistake he made was .. a complete abandonment of the principle of free speech. People have…

Would upvote this a million times if I could.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#286
post #280
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The arguments Stallman presented were hardly arguments and were not novel at all. You think that Minsky being unaware of the coercion would not be a mitigating factor in accusing him of sexual assault? When was that decided?

I think that the idea that Minsky was unaware (or at least had no suspicions of) coercion is highly suspect, and a bit naive. Powerful billionaire brings you to his private island and presents a beautiful young woman to you who appears ready and willing to have sex with you, a 75-year-old man. Is that ever credible, even in a porno? For Stallman to push this "Minsky didn't know" narrative now, with no horse in the ra…

So, I could certainly be convinced of that argument. But there is a middle ground between coercion and porno-plot that makes sense here: Minsky thought she was a prostitute of legal age, there by her own free choice in exchange for compensation. If that were the case, I don't think we should be calling what Minsky did assault, and I do think that that is a pretty reasonable and likely scenario.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I kinda have the same somewhat fearful gut reaction to these kinds of episodes as a lot of geeky guys do. There's a post[1] out there (which I think originally I found through hacker news) that does a pretty good job of analyzing where that reaction is coming from, and why the fear isn't totally illegitimate Considering a guy just lost two positions, one of them his life's work, for speaking incorrect opinions and…

Yeah, I really like that article; it articulates a part of the social dynamic that I just don't see talked about enough. But given the sheer scale of screwups here, the number of people's affected, while I have some sympathy for stallman, ultimately I think this one really is his fault -- it's one thing to make some social gaffes now and then. It's another to actively contribute to a toxic enviornment for longer than…

I don't think it gets talked about much because it's a tough topic that seemingly requires acknowledging each tribe, internalizing it, self reflection on your own biases, patience to remain detached, eloquence to express any synthesis achieved, and still often ends up sounding like you're just supporting the "other team" to the "cool nerds"!

This whole thread is overwhelmed with bullshit downvotes, presumably from "geek feminists" who think that defense of RMS is equivalent to supporting toxic patriarchy rape culture or whatever. Really we just don't want to be dragged into their monkeysphere games. They cannot understand this, as they cannot comprehend an existence that's not beholden to monkeysphere status games!

As someone who had to work to develop reasonable social skills, it does pain me to see people not learning basic tact. But I don't think scale of awkwardness on its own is an indictment - some people just do not "get it". And remember we are talking about a world in which they happily existed until the outsiders arrived - an "excuse" should not be necessary.

If specific boundaries are not being respected (neutrally, say B.O.), then that is a failure of management to make the rules known in a "right brain" manner. This dynamic has long existed in the professional world, even taking a step backwards under the tenure of these "cool nerds". The anecdote about the mattress in RMS's office rises to this level, and if as creepy as described, should have been shut down by the administration long ago. The failure there belongs to the Institute itself, not as dirty laundry to pile on years later.

I agree about the general lack of accountability, and I think it applies at larger scale. A few months ago everyone was all excited at the prospect of Epstein spilling his guts and taking down some associated evil fuckers generally shitting up our world. But then he got snuffed, which we all kind of knew would happen somehow but wanted to hope otherwise. So that prospect of nabbing some entrenched evil fuckers slipped away (they didn't get to their position by submitting themselves to justice!), but hey here's this weird guy who stuck his neck out to be attacked...

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it would absolve Minsky. Somebody who has sex with a prostitute is lower than dirt in my book.

Forget the prostitution issue. A 15-year-old cannot consent to sex with an adult. Period.

What do you mean by 'cannot' ? If 15-year-old rapes an adult, could he or she do it without his or her consent, or what ?

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shall not talk about it due to the connotations of its name, but rest assured those responsible have been liquidated.

I'm pretty sure it was intended in the sense of "to finger a suspect" (cf git blame) rather than anything vulgar. I think the tendency to take anything, in nearly any context, that could even maybe be vulgar, as vulgar 100% of the time, is actually relatively recent.

It was a joke response to AT&T’s tagline of the era “reach out and touch someone.”

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#290

Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here: This was not an isolated incident. If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and oversta…

Probably the good solution to all these problem would be two sort of conferences - with safe places, and without them; occasionally, many people are ok about sexualized jokes, and one could guess that some of them are not ok without them.

I understand that any sort of joke (for instance, about apples or about buses) can harm one, some sort of allergic person, and of course polite people would not use this sort of jokes in the presence of such allergic persons; but when one tries to forbid such jokes to all the others, I think it is quite problematic.

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