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Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

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Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#281

Post by steveklabnik »

Scoundreller wrote: post #276
steveklabnik wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allegheny is a steel company. I don’t think most people expect them to have the same responsibility for internet health as Verizon, even though they are a $4B company. (I’m from Pittsburgh, my grandfather and a bunch of my relatives worked for this company for decades. I’ve been kinda giggling about this intersection of my past and my present all day. I don’t work in the parts of Cloudflare that deal with this kind o…

I had to do a double take because they seem to be selling themselves as a technology company nowadays. I guess “steel” in your name isn’t good for share prices.

Tech or healthcare, that’s the way of things now.

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#282

Post by namibj »

IntelMiner wrote: post #212
jmvoodoo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could always announce a few of their routes and wait for them to call you I guess? :)

Arrange to drop all traffic from Verizon Then wait just as long to pick up the phone The sheer amount of calls taken would cost them money, the only thing they actively seem to notice

Brutal. Should do that for those that don't meet a voted-upon (no veto's allowed) deadline for implementing the mitigation(s).

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#283

Post by mattrp »

gwright wrote: post #201
owenmarshall wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt. But it’s 2019 and I can’t muster up much sympathy for a tier 1 who can’t get inbound filters and a responsive NOC implemented correctly - things which were table stakes in 2009.

2009? You are being generous. I'm pretty sure when I was managing BGP announcements for my small ISP in 1999 route filtering was a thing.

Exactly. All these comments about how rude cloudflare is forget this style of public shaming of AS’s that can’t perform basic hygiene on their own network has been the norm rather than the exception for over twenty years. And further, all the surprise that cloudflare was quick to report - here’s the deal: bgp doesn’t lie. The second something is wrong, everyone knows who did it. There’s zero mystery. It’s not like some grand caper that takes months of investigations. Operators basically have one rule - don’t leak bad routes to everyone else. That’s pretty much the only rule that’s a constant. When you break it your karma goes to zero, everyone dumps on you but life goes on.

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#284

Post by dang »

bogomipz wrote: post #273
nikisweeting wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(You handled both admirably well, I would just stop responding to this person.)

I'm sorry is holding a differing opinion and discussing that in a civil manner such an issue for you that you feel compelled to step in and offer prescriptive advice? Long live the filter bubble I guess huh?

Would you please stop posting like this to HN? At a certain point it only weakens your case, and you passed that point a while ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#285

Post by dang »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #272
Dylan16807 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> according to what you just said, is too personal That is not what I said! I said it can be, and then I clarified with: There are a variety of things that can be classified under "blaming a team" so I can't give it a blanket okay/not okay. I see the tweet. I call this case not personal. He's pointing the blame at large groups inside someone else's opaque company. If you're pointing at a blob of 100+ people (like you…

>If you're pointing at a blob of 100+ people (like you said, support is also being blamed) then you're not making it personal. Ahh, I see. So it's okay that he was offensive and insulting, because he was offensive and insulting to many people? It wouldn't have been okay if he was offensive and insulting to only a handful of people, but because it was more than that, it's okay? Is this some weird perversion of "one de…

Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#286

Post by dang »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #277
txcwpalpha wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're pointing at a blob of 100+ people (like you said, support is also being blamed) then you're not making it personal. Ahh, I see. So it's okay that he was offensive and insulting, because he was offensive and insulting to many people? It wouldn't have been okay if he was offensive and insulting to only a handful of people, but because it was more than that, it's okay? Is this some weird perversion of "one de…

> Is this some weird perversion of "one death is a tragedy, 1000 deaths is a statistic"? Nah. If you deliver 100 insults to 100 people, that's terrible. But if you deliver one insult to a vague blob of 100 people, that barely registers. The amount of insult directed at any specific person is tiny. That's why I'm not bothered by it. > it just makes it personal to more people No. > no matter how much you move the goalp…

Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#287

Post by Dylan16807 »

dang wrote: post #286
Dylan16807 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this some weird perversion of "one death is a tragedy, 1000 deaths is a statistic"? Nah. If you deliver 100 insults to 100 people, that's terrible. But if you deliver one insult to a vague blob of 100 people, that barely registers. The amount of insult directed at any specific person is tiny. That's why I'm not bothered by it. > it just makes it personal to more people No. > no matter how much you move the goalp…

Please don't break the site guidelines. Also, please don't do these intense tit-for-tat arguments with another user. They don't help, they lower the signal/noise ratio, and they bore everyone else. I know it's hard (believe me I know how hard it is), but at some point someone needs to be the first to let go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That's fair. While I haven't had a huge number of arguments like this, I can only name one or two that resolved successfully. I'll leave things earlier.

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#288

Post by bogomipz »

lima wrote: post #279
bogomipz wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"It wasn't a slow response, it was no response. And either is unacceptable for a tier 1 carrier." Have you dealt with a Tier 1 carrier before? If you are not a peer i.e another Tier 1 you don't get immediate responses even in the best of times. >"It wasn't a slow response, it was no response. And either is unacceptable for a tier 1 carrier." No. I know people at Telia and NTT who were in contact with Verizon during…

CloudFlare is not a tier 1 carrier if you go by the strict definition of the term, just like Google isn't - but it's one of the largest content networks, reponsible for a significant percentage of internet traffic, with a global carrier-level backbone. Google and CloudFlare even tend to have better internal routing than most tier 1 providers.

They are not a carrier period! They don't sell transit. A Tier 1 carrier does settlement-free peering. They are a CDN. And no the most certainly do not have a "global carrier-level backbone." Argot or whatever they are calling their product is not an actual backbone with dedicated fiber, submarine cable etc. There would be no reason for them to invest in fiber and lightwave gear as they are en edge network full stop. Your comment shows a lack of understanding of how the internet actually works.

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#289

Post by VectorLock »

IntelMiner wrote: post #210
dreamcompiler wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think somebody should make some "I Fixed the Internet after Verizon Broke It. 20190624" T-shirts.

"Verizon broke the internet and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

https://teespring.com/24-jun-2019

Re: Verizon and a BGP Optimizer Knocked Large Parts of the Internet Offline

#290

Post by vageli »

bin0 wrote: post #247
vageli wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hmm. My issue with that is a majority consensus could decide that, for instance, .gov domains should no longer be relegated to the American government. Same issue as with a crypto 51% takeover. I'm sure other countries would like to use .gov.

They are entitled to their opinion; I saw a lot of this on the .amazon thread yesterday. However, right now, it's used by America only. There are some perks to inventing the internet. My point is I don't like a system in which the majority can decide they don't like you having something and take it. For instance, what if people decided they didn't like facebook, so decided to seize its domain?

It's used by America only because America made the rules. That's not a great justification for the system as it stands.

Are there any examples of longstanding institutions that are _not_ beholden to the will of the many? All things fall if you can get enough people to revolt.

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