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Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

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281–290 of 299 posts

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word is 'speculation' not 'belief' that that's pretty much what all science is. The evidence usually comes later.

There I was thinking that the scientific method involved falsifiable hypotheses - so how are they going to prove or disprove their respective beliefs? I'm getting string theory flashbacks where half of the physics community is into it, the other half is not, and no-one can prove anything, but they still have a grand old time arguing about it anyway.

The mind is not limited by the laws of physics in the sense that it can actually think about unfalsifiable ideas.

Then we work backwards and try to get it done with falsifiability.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't point 2 (something exists of necessity) negate point 1 (clear it doesn't have to exist)? they are talking about different things. The universe is contingent, but something other than the universe (that is not contingent) is required to explain the existence of the universe. > On point 3 I fail to see logical need for external cause. Existence could simply be an intrensic property of the universe. Could the…

I'm not sure that conventional human mathematics lacking the ability to explain something indicates another abstract level of complexity above what we call "the universe". Also I don't know that infinite regress is necessarily a problem. Cycles most immediately come to mind, aka "loop quantum gravity". But really I think think both the concept of God and the universe are a perceptual and a definition problem. Because…

> I'm not sure that conventional human mathematics lacking the ability to explain something indicates another abstract level of complexity above what we call "the universe".

I just bring up mathematics as an example of something that philosophers have typically categorized as "necessary truth". For example, 1 + 1 = 2 is necessarily true (there is no possible world in which it is not true) and as such requires no additional explanation as to why it's true (aside from just defining terms).

The fact that the earth is populated with living organisms is a contingent fact. That is, it is possible that there be no living organisms on the earth (or, in philosophical parlance, "there are possible worlds in which the earth is not populated with living organisms"). It seems perfectly logical to conclude that if there are living organisms on the earth, but there need not be, then therefore there must be some explanation as to why it is so. Indeed, one might say that the entire enterprise of science is predicated upon the notion that contingent facts have causal explanations.

So when it comes to the question of "why does anything exist at all, rather than nothing?", I think it's fair to question whether we can know the reason, but it likewise seems inescapable that there must be a reason.

> Also I don't know that infinite regress is necessarily a problem. Cycles most immediately come to mind, aka "loop quantum gravity".

Well, I can say that it doesn't look like the universe is headed in some kind of loop (because of accelerated expansion) but that (at best) answers the physical question whether we are in a cycle, not the metaphysical question of why there must be a prime cause. I admit I don't have a good answer for that, but I will certainly think on it. I also don't know enough about loop quantum gravity know how that relates (though I trust it does).

> That being said, I see no reason to abstract things more than needed.

As the saying goes "a theory should be as simple as possible, but no simpler". In this case, I would say that a "prime cause" is the simplest theory available. To posit that the universe exists without cause is too simple, and alternative theories (such as the multiverse theory) are more complex.

> "Prime cause" just appears a very fallacious argument to me, I guess that's the point. No offense intended.

No offense taken! It's always great to hear what parts of my thinking other people find unconvincing. I like knowing how other people think about these kinds of issues.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if our universe has an external superuniverse This is also meaningless, scientifically: there is nothing you can measure which is outside the universe. Things like a holographic universe are inherently untestable. I hope we continue looking for testable things, but this speculative path rapidly leads away from science and physics and into "linguistic tricks to confuse humans". It's not even philosophy at that point…

you can't measure emotion or moral principles but they certainly exist.

Right, and I think this illustrates well how linguistic this "problem" is.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#284
post #192
post #169

The start of the Universe was the start of time. My personal theory is that when matter enters a black hole, some of that matter (in some form) gets snapped out of space-time, emerging at time 0, at 0,0,0 coordinate. With all the black holes over time, all venting into the same space and time, producing lots of matter in a single space at the same start of time, which would create a big bang. Just a theory, but one I…

Slightly different but related thought: what if inside of each black hole singularity is another universe? The stuff it collects ends up in this other universe. Which would mean our universe is just "inside" the black hole of another. Then perhaps the accelerating expansion of spacetime we detect here has something to do with the accelerating accumulation of mass of our "parent" black hole.

to me it's more rational to think that each black hole is just punching a hole in our 4-d spacetime fabric just like a sharp point can punch through a bag. what the stuff drains into - I have no idea. Perhaps a higher-dimensional space that contains our universe?

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#285
post #270
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universe is everything. By definition, there can be no evidence for anything outside, before, or after it. Any such evidence would be in the universe. There are no valid questions about it, nor valid answers. Any claims about something outside the universe are neither true nor false—they are completely arbitrary. They have the same intellectual status as God.

I addressed what you said, you just blindly re-iterated your point without any engagement with mine at all. To spell it out even more clearly, what if "the universe" is larger than the observable universe? In that case, it would still be reasonable to ask where did the observable universe come from ? For instance, if we are a simulation, you would place the simulator in "the universe", which as a definition is a fine…

This is precisely the form of argument made by religionists.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#286
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no proof that it's simply nothingness when you die. If this universe has countless beginning points, what makes you consider a single ending point would exist anywhere?

> You have no proof that it's simply nothingness when you die Do you mean to imply that you have proof to the contrary? Why is there any reason to assume anything else?

Conservation of matter and energy states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So what makes some annihilationist version of reality palatable to a true scientist?

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#287
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> matter in the universe isn't slowing down in spreading apart, but accelerating How come this does not violate the law of conservation of energy which says there's a fixed amount of energy in the universe? For matter to accelerate would require energy right? Where is the energy fueling this universal acceleration coming from? According to Newton's laws, doesn't there also need to be an external actor causing this ac…

There is no matter being accelerated but space itself is expanding, which is why distant objects may accelerate beyond the speed of light, atleast that is what it looks like.

Wow, that's new to me. My understanding has always been that space is just the absence of matter. The ideally of null/void expanding is strange, to say the least.

Do you have recommendations for any books or resources online that break this down, and explain it in an ELI5 way?

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is your point that, for an object to be curved, there must be something for it to curve into? For example, in order for a 2D surface (like the latex in the balloon) to be curved, it necessarily must be in a 3D (or higher) space? Given the context I'm guessing you asked this rhetorically, but if not: it is not true in general that a curved n -dimensional object must be embedded in a n + k -dimensional space. Curvatu…

Could you expand on that statement a little, please. You can take a curved object in 3D space and project it into 2D space and it remains curved? In the examples of Gaussian curvature here https://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/about-us/departmental-art/theory/... they only appear to be curved because they're 3D (an arc-section of a sphere, a paraboloid), none of them is 2D. Are the examples just weak? Wolfram has a curious defi…

A sphere has positive Gaussian curvature everywhere, in 3D. You don't need to view it from 4D to discover this, you can draw a triangle on the surface and note that the interior angles add up to >180 degrees. You can't project it into 2D space and keep the curvature, which is why all maps have distortion.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#289
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no matter being accelerated but space itself is expanding, which is why distant objects may accelerate beyond the speed of light, atleast that is what it looks like.

Wow, that's new to me. My understanding has always been that space is just the absence of matter. The ideally of null/void expanding is strange, to say the least. Do you have recommendations for any books or resources online that break this down, and explain it in an ELI5 way?

I don't know any good resources/books on the topic, I've learned most of it via the education system with some additional background in internet.

There isn't much of a good analog from daily life, but essentially as you said, the null/void itself is becoming more. Two objects with a certain distance between eachother will find this distance growing even if they are not in relative motion in reality, though from either's perspective, the other is moving away at increasing speeds (due to more space inbetween expanding). Eventually the distance will be large enough that the space created between the two objects will exceed the distance that light could have travelled; the object becomes superluminal, or faster-than-light. This is allowed because it's not actually the object moving but the coordinate system they are in moving. With some luck you can still observe these objects.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#290
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of discussion always reminds me of the Asimov story "The Last Question" https://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

An excellently illustrated version of "The Last Question": https://imgur.com/gallery/9KWrH

Brilliant! Thank you
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