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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#281

Post by pron »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #262
kllrnohj wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. Value types are a major missing piece in the JVM stack right now. It's at least on the roadmap, but it keeps getting pushed back and back and back. I'd also argue runtime generics is another one, and perhaps more depressingly one that is unlikely to ever get fixed. .NET has both of them and al…

> the actual language & core libraries are incredibly slow to react to anything. async/await being the obvious example. Still no sign of it in the Java language, nor any expectation of it, unless I missed something.

https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/loom/ which is superior to async/await, if I may say so myself (I'm the project lead)

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#282

Post by endymi0n »

tomohawk wrote: post #265
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

It takes a lot of power to push something that large. A lot of brain power to grock the ecosystem. Outside of the Java bubble, the view is quite a bit different. All that sophistication looks like a wasted effort. Take something as simple as admining the garbage collector. Java has a big selection of GCs, and each has their bunch of knobs for tuning. And you have to pay attention to that stuff. After working with Go…

Funnily enough, Go just chose to solve the problem the other way around: While JVM tackled GC with the code equivalent of lightsaber-equipped drones, Go‘s GC is almost embarrassingly simple in comparison (although it‘s pretty decent by now).

The major difference is that the whole Go language and stdlib is simply written around patterns that avoid allocations almost magically. The simplicity of the Reader and Writer concepts is so elegant, yet powerful and doesn‘t allocate anything but a tiny reused buffer on the stack. There‘s lots and lots of other examples, but if you have to collect ten times less garbage, you‘ll be better off, even if your GC is 2x slower.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#283

Post by mevile »

vijucat wrote: post #278
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

Great points, but it's actually much simpler than that: if you want static types, you have already eliminated the majority of HN darlings (JS, Python, and Ruby). Where do you? Most developers turn to C++, Java, or C# (not Haskell or F#, for example), and of these, Java and C# are both great for productivity and not daunting for someone just starting out, unlike C++. There was a period after 200x where developers mana…

While I still like Python, Python and Ruby haven't been darlings of anything in probably the last 10 years. Go, Rust, Swift, and Kotlin are newer statically typed languages that lots of devs on here like though.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#284

Post by evacchi »

dlandis wrote: post #254
BoyRobot777 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should checkout new RedHat framework - [Quarkus]( https://quarkus.io/ ). This is a framework which leverages Graal to create native images. Those images are very small and optimized. For example one of Quarkus developers showcase the size of native image, spoilers - it's [19MB]( https://youtu.be/BcPLbhC9KAA?t=103 ). It takes 0,004s to start. In [this]( https://youtu.be/7G_r1iyrn2c?t=3104 ) session, RedHat develop…

Looks very interesting although unfortunate they went with Maven over Gradle.

they do support gradle https://quarkus.io/guides/gradle-tooling

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#286

Post by evacchi »

tus87 wrote: post #276
CountHackulus wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not calling your code 5000x then it's likely not important for performance. I worked in compilers for 5 years and people's intuition for what parts of the code are the bottleneck is generally not very good. This includes me, I've guessed wrong a WHOLE lot. If you're running microbenchmarks and having issues, then you're likely not using JMH, the Java Microbenchmark Harness which used to be a 3rd party libra…

> If you're just writing a small routing server, probably not the right use case for Java. General purpose languages have "use-cases"?

I think in this context Java means "the platform" i.e. the JDK

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#287

Post by syjer »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #262
kllrnohj wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. Value types are a major missing piece in the JVM stack right now. It's at least on the roadmap, but it keeps getting pushed back and back and back. I'd also argue runtime generics is another one, and perhaps more depressingly one that is unlikely to ever get fixed. .NET has both of them and al…

> the actual language & core libraries are incredibly slow to react to anything. async/await being the obvious example. Still no sign of it in the Java language, nor any expectation of it, unless I missed something.

I think that the approach done in https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/loom/Main is better than the async/await infrastructure.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#288

Post by archgoon »

mevile wrote: post #283
vijucat wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great points, but it's actually much simpler than that: if you want static types, you have already eliminated the majority of HN darlings (JS, Python, and Ruby). Where do you? Most developers turn to C++, Java, or C# (not Haskell or F#, for example), and of these, Java and C# are both great for productivity and not daunting for someone just starting out, unlike C++. There was a period after 200x where developers mana…

While I still like Python, Python and Ruby haven't been darlings of anything in probably the last 10 years. Go, Rust, Swift, and Kotlin are newer statically typed languages that lots of devs on here like though.

Python's relevance got renewed by the ML frameworks (Tensorflow) and notebooks (Jupyter).

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#289

Post by btilly »

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #274
btilly wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET is tied to Microsoft, so I'd avoid it 100% of the time. Yes, yes. I know that Microsoft theoretically open sourced and ported it. However the way that this always works is that there is a base that can be written in, but anything non-trivial will have pulled in something that, surprise surprise, is Windows only. Otherwise I agree that it is a better Java.

I don’t think is true anymore. The .net 5 announcement was very clear that .net core is the future and its been a while since you’ve had needed things that are windows only to build a non-trivial .net core application.

Please double check my wording.

Yes, you can write a non-trivial .NET application on Linux. But if you take a non-trivial .NET application that runs on Windows, the odds are low that it can easily be ported to Linux. And there are almost no non-trivial .NET applications that weren't originally written for Windows.

The result is that if you work with .NET, you're going to be pushed towards Windows.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#290

Post by [deleted] »

dlandis wrote: post #254
BoyRobot777 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should checkout new RedHat framework - [Quarkus]( https://quarkus.io/ ). This is a framework which leverages Graal to create native images. Those images are very small and optimized. For example one of Quarkus developers showcase the size of native image, spoilers - it's [19MB]( https://youtu.be/BcPLbhC9KAA?t=103 ). It takes 0,004s to start. In [this]( https://youtu.be/7G_r1iyrn2c?t=3104 ) session, RedHat develop…

Looks very interesting although unfortunate they went with Maven over Gradle.

[deleted]
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