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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#281

Post by Consultant32452 »

Justsignedup wrote: post #218
MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

I've been working professionally in Java for almost 20 years. I can't remember the last time I saw someone use features introduced after 1.6. The time API in 1.8 was nice. I've never seen anyone use lambdas in production code. I'm sure people do use newer stuff, but I think it's the minority. So in practice it's even more stable than it is in the headlines.

Re: Java 12

#282

Post by james_s_tayler »

samus wrote: post #99
java-man wrote: post #2

I wish they did not decouple JavaFX...

Yeah, that kinda makes it impossible to become a successor to Swing. But the situation actually got more sane because JavaFX can be included now as a Maven dependency, like any other framework.

Why do people still use Maven when Gradle exists?

I'll never know.

Re: Java 12

#283

Post by gigatexal »

MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

Biggest barrier to entry for me is the build dependency system Maven. And I never understood Ant. I did like the language when I played around with Java 8. Streams are amazing.

Re: Java 12

#284

Post by pjmlp »

bpicolo wrote: post #188
pjmlp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quite a couple of them running happily with Java 11.

Were there any hiccups in the upgrade?

To Java 9 yes, mostly due to third party dependencies and the move to modules.

To Java 11 you might have additional hiccups when using JavaFX, or the JEE libraries that were also being bundled with the Java SE.

Which wasn't our case.

Re: Java 12

#285

Post by lenkite »

hactually wrote: post #164
vbezhenar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far I did not find anything comparable to replace Java for website server language. Go is a terrible extremely verbose language without vital features. JavaScript on Node is limited by single-thread and JavaScript itself is a terrible language (along with other dynamic languages like PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby). Rust is awesome, but I don't think that it'll be ever usable for mediocre developers, therefore it can't b…

Bit of a Go fan here so just wondered if you'd qualify what you mean by: > without vital features

Beating a dead horse here - but Streams and Generics are now what I personally consider vital features. Code is much more compact and elegant with the proper application of these two features.

Re: Java 12

#286

Post by james_s_tayler »

pjmlp wrote: post #110
wongarsu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

As someone that works with both stacks since their inception, there are tons of platforms with Java compilers, where .NET Core isn't even a thing today, and there are tons of .NET libraries that will never leave .NET Framework. So it isn't like just exchanging one for the other like that.

I'm finding library support quite good for .NET Core tbh. Not perfect, but it's not at all a barrier to adoption.

Re: Java 12

#287

Post by jtolmar »

stefan_ wrote: post #84
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

If you have some control over when a GC triggers you could sneak one in during hitstun.

Re: Java 12

#288

Post by james_s_tayler »

meddlepal wrote: post #181
wongarsu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

The problem with C#, which I think is a fine language, is the small(ish) size of the ecosystem and the refusal of the ecosystem to deviate away from non-MS endorsed libraries and frameworks. It's the ridiculously large JVM ecosystem that makes Java awesome, not the language.

Yeah, I definitely feel this some days. I've just moved over to C# from Java because I'm bearish on Oracle as a vendor in general, I find C# great and impressed with Microsoft's efforts as a vendor with what they've done with .NET Core.

I have love for Java, but I gotta say it mostly is because the ecosystem is pretty fantastic. So much open source stuff for so long means it's all just there and it all just works. There are some gaps though.

.NET ecosystem isn't bad. It's pretty good. There are some phenomenal libraries. But sometimes the gaps are painful. The lack of an open source (read FREE) integration framework is a big one for me. There is BizTalk but that's commercial and probably expensive. Same with scheduling libraries. HangFire looks great but it's paid. A lot of the really high quality stuff you have to shell out for which when you're just hacking in your own time is not feasible. That being said there are open source libraries and some of them aren't bad. Lots of great stuff in general.

Re: Java 12

#289

Post by iGoog »

int_19h wrote: post #271
iGoog wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta ask what in particular "problems" C# solves over Java, and I'm not talking about J2SE 1.4. Having dipped into C#, it feels like the designers resented OOP and reusable code. C# is not the new kid on the block and is almost 20 years old now.

> it feels like the designers resented OOP and reusable code Can you give some examples, that wouldn't be equally applicable to Java?

Polymorphism and inheritance by default?

Re: Java 12

#290

Post by iGoog »

int_19h wrote: post #271
iGoog wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta ask what in particular "problems" C# solves over Java, and I'm not talking about J2SE 1.4. Having dipped into C#, it feels like the designers resented OOP and reusable code. C# is not the new kid on the block and is almost 20 years old now.

> it feels like the designers resented OOP and reusable code Can you give some examples, that wouldn't be equally applicable to Java?

Maybe it's less of a C# thing, and more of a Unity thing - but I'd say that Unity has some major architectural anti-patterns - which may just be to appease the ease of a the awesomeness of a wysiwyg type game engine.
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