24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#281

Post by sjwright » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:27 AM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #207

ehutch79 wrote: post #197

Please do not confuse the usefulness of 24/192 for playback and listening enjoyment, and it's usefulness for recording and heavy 'in the box' processing.

In the box processing uses 32-bit or 64-bit float. Fixed-point DSP processing was a thing maybe ten years ago, and even then the standard was 56-bit. 24-bit is nowhere close to good enough for ITB DSP. That aside - the bit depth part of this article is silly and wrong. With an unprocessed acoustic recording, the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit sources is fairly easy to hear on professional equipment. By the time…

> That aside - the bit depth part of this article is silly and wrong. With an unprocessed acoustic recording

It's neither silly nor wrong—the article's title literally excludes it from consideration. This is about music downloads, not music production.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#282

Post by sjwright » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

function_seven wrote: post #160

jrace wrote: post #150

This same argument can be made for many things Why have an engine in my car that can exceed all speed limits? Why have a heating and cooling system in my house that can exceed any comfortable level? Why have lights that get brighter than I need? Why have an internet connection that exceeds what I need now? ======== I keep all my music rips in uncompressed FLAC - 1) because i can 2) because I have the most flexibility…

Your examples all have good reasons though. > Why have an engine in my car that can exceed all speed limits? So I can drive faster than the speed limit if I want to. (And I do) > Why have a heating and cooling system in my house that can exceed any comfortable level? Well, you shouldn't oversize your HVAC system if you want to save money. But it's nice to be able to achieve your target temp in a reasonable time perio…

More analogies—

It's like printing your brochures at 160,000 DPI instead of 2,400 DPI. The difference is entirely imperceptible by the human sensory system without artificial augmentation.

It's like capturing the invisible infrared light spectrum in a cinematic movie camera so it can be projected back to cinemagoers as infrared light in the theatre.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#283

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #257

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So vinyl has only about the equivalent of 10-14 bits of resolution (I don't remember the exact number I heard and it has been a while) and waveforms within our hearing range are far larger than what 192khz can potentially accomodate. The only use I've found for such high-resolution is audio is using it as base material for further effects processing... certain distortion units and whatnot that operate on a sample lev…

No, not at all. Vinyl has a wildly inconsistent noise level where rumble predominates, and people conflate this with bits of resolution. Vinyl's behavior is not easily pinned down relative to 'bits of resolution', because the noise floor is skewed so intensely towards low frequencies. To say nothing of how generally available vinyl records (especially old ones) have wildly different rms/peak measurements than general…

2-bit digital audio? Like only four total values of dynamic range total? 4-bit meaning only 16 total possible amplitudes? Is that even physically possible? ;)

I agree that the quality of the record -- AND its playback equipment -- among other physical factors will dramatically effect the numbers. My "10-14" quote only applies for ideal conditions: a newly-minted, unplayed disc on a high-quality preamp which together with the turntable and clean needles can produce a very low noise floor. Obviously I'm never going to get this with my dad's old Dead vinyl that he played to death, or with cheap needles, or with those crappy Crowley turntables at target....

Anecdotally, on my home system with clean records, I can make nearly-CD-quality recordings, with the differences only really apparent on flat studio monitors or a good Hi-Fi.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#284

Post by criddell » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #257

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So vinyl has only about the equivalent of 10-14 bits of resolution (I don't remember the exact number I heard and it has been a while) and waveforms within our hearing range are far larger than what 192khz can potentially accomodate. The only use I've found for such high-resolution is audio is using it as base material for further effects processing... certain distortion units and whatnot that operate on a sample lev…

No, not at all. Vinyl has a wildly inconsistent noise level where rumble predominates, and people conflate this with bits of resolution. Vinyl's behavior is not easily pinned down relative to 'bits of resolution', because the noise floor is skewed so intensely towards low frequencies. To say nothing of how generally available vinyl records (especially old ones) have wildly different rms/peak measurements than general…

Plus, the groove on the outside is moving past the needle faster than the inside. The best sounding track on an album is going to be the first one.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#285

Post by jorgesborges » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

mruts wrote: post #138

stcredzero wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since everyone is listening of crappy earbuds, they compress the hell out of it and destroy all dynamic range. More compression and less dynamic range is beneficial for certain environments. Noisy subways. Watching TV in a noisy downtown apartment. Basically, crappy, noisy environments. In those, compression will help you actually hear the music and speech. However, the fact that this should be done in the master is…

But there are easy ways to kill dynamic range with an algorithm. On windows this is called "loudness equalization." On the otherhand, there is no way to go back from little dynamic range to more dynamic range. So I think it makes sense that records are mastered with a lot of dynamic range, so the people who actually enjoy music can enjoy it, and the people who don't can just equalize it themselves.

This reminds me of how accessible the equalizer was in Winamp. I spent a lot of time creating custom configurations for my music. I had no expertise and the results were questionable but it was fun. I wish Spotify was more fun.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#286

Post by crummy » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #161

matwood wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where do you store these files that you'll never lose access? CDs? People with a room full of 8 tracks or cassettes would like to have a word. HDDs? Those fail all the time, plus any sort of natural disaster could wipe out your collection. Online backup? This seems like the only real option, but for me the risk/reward just doesn't fit. At least for now, the record companies and the service providers are both incen…

One copy on each of: -My desktop at home -My server in the basement -My work laptop's external hard drive -An external hard drive in a fireproof lockbox (server backup) -An external hard drive on a shelf at work (server backup) -An external hard drive in my parent's house 150 miles away (server backup) Try prying my files from my cold dead hands.

How do you keep them all in sync when you rip new music?

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#287

Post by criddell » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:49 AM UTC

ValentineC wrote: post #221

teknico wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article's author, Chris "Monty" Montgomery, is one of the authors of Ogg Vorbis [1] and Opus [2]. It puzzles me that many people don't yet know about Opus. Let me quote the FAQ [3]: "Does Opus make all those other lossy codecs obsolete? Yes. From a technical point of view (loss, delay, bitrates, ...) Opus renders Speex obsolete and should also replace Vorbis and the common proprietary codecs too (e.g. AAC, MP3, .…

I thought for a moment that Spotify uses Opus, but it turns out that they use Vorbis. Wonder why a switch isn't on their roadmap.

> Wonder why a switch isn't on their roadmap.

Just a guess but I bet it's because the cost would be higher than the extra revenue it would generate.

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#288

Post by gwbas1c » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #183

gwbas1c wrote: post #170

When I casually researched the upper limit of human hearing, I came across something that mentioned that some people can detect lowpass filtering up to 27khz. That's less than half an octave over the "traditional" 20khz limit. Even the 20khz limit is more of an average then a strict biological limit. It also means that a sampling rate somewhere at 54khz is the "ideal" limit when trying to pick a sampling frequency th…

> When I casually researched the upper limit of human hearing, I came across something that mentioned that some people can detect lowpass filtering up to 27khz. Link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range#Humans

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#289

Post by theandrewbailey » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

crummy wrote: post #286

theandrewbailey wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One copy on each of: -My desktop at home -My server in the basement -My work laptop's external hard drive -An external hard drive in a fireproof lockbox (server backup) -An external hard drive on a shelf at work (server backup) -An external hard drive in my parent's house 150 miles away (server backup) Try prying my files from my cold dead hands.

How do you keep them all in sync when you rip new music?

I put it on my desktop. I back it up to the server. Over the next few weeks/months, I connect an external drive to the server, update, and swap with the other 2. The work laptop drive gets updated from the server over rsync/SSH when I want to listen to my new stuff (almost right away).

Re: 24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#290

Post by elihu » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:22 AM UTC

Storage space is cheap, and we have the ability to record and store music in 24/192 or any other format we want. Even if it's useless to us now, it may be of value some day when our genetically-engineered descendants can hear up to 40khz or when someone invents a direct condenser-microphone-to-brain interface.