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Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

nytimes.com

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Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#281

Post by Izkata »

bytematic wrote: post #127
Aeolun wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the depth of knowledge that is generally imparted in 3 or 6 ECTS (average course length in europe, 75-150 hours of combined self/guided study) is fairly shallow, I’m not sure how much this would help the learner. Maybe courses in the US are generally longer?

Depends on how many "credits" the course is worth (which can be pretty arbitrary). However, 14-15 weeks of 1hr classes twice a week is standard.

Why is this downvoted? Credits are based duration with an assumed correlation to workload (where workload actually changes pretty heavily with professor and field).

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#282

Post by Izkata »

nradov wrote: post #149
School-Cotton wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to point out the underlying reason for this: a US high school diploma is absolutely worthless garbage, so you need to continue generalist studies in university to bring people up to the standard of other developed countries. E.g. someone with a French baccalauréat or enough British A levels can usually skip the first year or two of university in the US.

A US high school graduate with enough Advanced Placement classes can skip the first year of university (at least for public universities which accept those credits). But only well funded high schools can afford to offer that many AP classes.

> But only well funded high schools can afford to offer that many AP classes.

No need. Study on your own then specially request the AP exam; it's what I did for the CS one, since my highschool didn't have a class for it. Ended up being the 3rd or 4th to succeed at my school, out of around 600 graduating students per year for over a decade.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#283

Post by metalens »

Wiretrip wrote: post #244
amvalo wrote: post #96

This article is credentialism at its worst. The best programmers I know are self-taught, because they have a passion for it. I know people working at minimum wage, never enrolled in college, who got decent programming jobs after a year or two learning CS on their own. These people will always (I hope) form the core of the profession.

"year or two learning CS on their own" Sorry, but what they are teaching themselves is not Computer Science, it is programming, which is a tiny subset of computer science or even slightly outside it but intersecting. To get a well rounded knowledge of fundamental things, such a program and data structures, memory management, analysis and design, architectures, how OSs work, cryptography, machine learning, networking…

Spot on.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#284

Post by IdiocyInAction »

cs-holder wrote: post #174

Since when is being a software engineer a "high-status" job, as mentioned in the first paragraph? Most people would consider a non-washed out doctor or lawyer (which is expensive and difficult to achieve) as having higher status than pretty much anyone working with a CS degree, unless they are a successful founder or went into investments. Besides medicine/law, young people with some degree of privilege and ambition…

In Europe you are the same as a manual laborer status wise. I have no idea how it is in the US.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#285

Post by IdiocyInAction »

gaze wrote: post #49

If CS is so popular right now, how can it possibly command high pay by the time these people hit the job market? Do they all expect to compete against each other for high paying positions? How is that a good bet? Do they expect that there will be a ton of jobs that will all pay well?

Well, it won't, as it also does not in most of the world. In Europe, CS pays middle income, about as much as a better-earning manual laborer or something (with the same status as well), with incomes ranging from 35000-70000 in my country. Companies in the US would probably like that as well.

It'll also drag the quality of major way down. I TA'd a few classes at my University and the quality of people is not that high already.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#286

Post by IdiocyInAction »

droobles wrote: post #264
Jtsummers wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an information delay that causes these trends. Remember that the people making decisions on their college majors are 16-18 year olds. They're basing these decisions on $$$. The university encourages these decisions because of $$$. The new students aren't looking at the job market and recognizing that they're pushing it towards a glut (as a cohort), as individuals they're making a sound decision in that moment…

I've talked about this with friends – is CS a gold rush right now? I'm sure with the younger generation being fed that it's a cheat code to make money the market will flood and wages will be driven down. Or, web dev jobs will be flooded and proper system design jobs will stay the same since they have such a high barrier of entry? We'll just have to wait and see.

It probably is to some extent, though computing skills are becoming so important that it might take a while for graduates to really feel the crunch.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#287

Post by IdiocyInAction »

forgottenpass wrote: post #83
gaze wrote: post #49

If CS is so popular right now, how can it possibly command high pay by the time these people hit the job market? Do they all expect to compete against each other for high paying positions? How is that a good bet? Do they expect that there will be a ton of jobs that will all pay well?

Spolier alert: it won't, and that's exactly the point of pushing so many people into CS. It will also reduce the average skill and competency, dragging the expectations and capabilities of the profession down.

Yeah, we might get another dot-com bubble.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#288

Post by IdiocyInAction »

amvalo wrote: post #96

This article is credentialism at its worst. The best programmers I know are self-taught, because they have a passion for it. I know people working at minimum wage, never enrolled in college, who got decent programming jobs after a year or two learning CS on their own. These people will always (I hope) form the core of the profession.

Doesn't line up with my experience. Many self-taught people I've worked with lacked knowledge in fundamentals and the best people I've worked with all had a degree.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#289

Post by cs-holder »

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #284
cs-holder wrote: post #174

Since when is being a software engineer a "high-status" job, as mentioned in the first paragraph? Most people would consider a non-washed out doctor or lawyer (which is expensive and difficult to achieve) as having higher status than pretty much anyone working with a CS degree, unless they are a successful founder or went into investments. Besides medicine/law, young people with some degree of privilege and ambition…

In Europe you are the same as a manual laborer status wise. I have no idea how it is in the US.

Interesting. Manual laborer or "blue-collar" in the US is almost like a separate "tree" than professional or "white-collar" jobs. If you actually have a skilled or semi-skilled blue-collar job that hasn't been displaced by immigration or automation you are doing pretty well compared to those in the bottom part of the "white-collar" tree. Also the majority of your friends and family would probably be blue-collar and you wouldn't even be comparing yourself to doctors and lawyers.

I've heard that "actual" engineers, like people who design plants, vehicles, bridges, buildings, etc. are considered higher status in Europe than in the US. Here I think probably the top 20-30% of software developers are better regarded (and make way more money) than most of these engineers, unless these engineers are on their way to upper management or determining investments. I also think whether you're one of those people -- your social class, basically -- is pretty much determined by the day you turn 18, even in the US.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#290

Post by tedmiston »

Aeolun wrote: post #121
jefftk wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US, especially liberal arts colleges, is pretty wary of premature specialization. A common thing here is that you apply to a university, take classes in a range of departments, and then by the end of sophomore year (two of four) you decide on a major. I went to Swarthmore (referenced in the article) before CS enrollment surged (www.swarthmore.edu/computer-science/alumni) and there were some people in my CS classe…

I don’t get this. In the Netherlands I’ve studied for 4 years on hard computer science. Somehow someone from the US has done maybe 1.5 years of that and gotten the same degree?

It's definitely different for US vs non-US schools, but I don't think counting in years is a good measure as it disregards depth, skipped courses, total # of courses, # of concurrent courses, etc. Even course stats like that are pretty handwavy.

It's more useful to refer to the CS curriculum standards across ABET accredited schools.

That said, we don't have anything like a comprehensive undergrad final exam for CS schools that would validate this.

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