I'm going to work full-time on free software • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#281

Post by mikekchar » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 5:59 AM UTC

sridca wrote: post #280

mikekchar wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that I don't agree with your position. I don't think that nearly all of our value-preferences come from social conditioning. That's why I countered with specific examples of values/preferences that do not come from social conditioning. The belief that watching TV is wasteful comes from the experience of actually wasting time watching TV when one would prefer to have done something else. Why don't we do s…

I was not talking about preferences -- if one actually "prefers" to do something over watching TV, then why not just do it (after all that's what a "preference" is) instead of doing the contrary and then lamenting about wasting time spent on that? -- rather about values instilled by social conditioning. Maybe my 'value-preference' wording is the source of confusion. For maximum effect, here's a fuller list of words t…

I think I understood what you were talking about. Your question "If one actually prefers [X]... why not just do it... [rather than lament] about wasting time..." is an interesting question. I believe that people actually do this. In fact I do this. I'm doing it right now ;-)

This is not an issue of people being conditioned unthinkingly to accept that TV is a low value activity. I don't believe people believe this. I think that if you were to do a survey of people and ask the questions: "Do you believe watching TV is always a waste of time" I think overwhelmingly people would answer "no". If you ask, "Do you believe that watching TV is sometimes a waste of time" I think overwhelmingly people would answer "yes".

That's the point I was trying to make. People are making rational value judgements about their TV watching habits. Sometimes it is very valuable. Most time it is very wasteful. I think that people have very rational reasons for believing this and have actually thought it through.

As to why people do things that they believe is a waste of time? Why did you write that long list of words. Did you believe I would read it? Did you believe it would add value to the conversation? Did you believe it would add value to your life? Or did you do it without really evaluating whether or not it was a valuable thing to do?

I think these answers, if considered with introspection will answer the question you posed.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#282

Post by sridca » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 6:22 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #281

sridca wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not talking about preferences -- if one actually "prefers" to do something over watching TV, then why not just do it (after all that's what a "preference" is) instead of doing the contrary and then lamenting about wasting time spent on that? -- rather about values instilled by social conditioning. Maybe my 'value-preference' wording is the source of confusion. For maximum effect, here's a fuller list of words t…

I think I understood what you were talking about. Your question "If one actually prefers [X]... why not just do it... [rather than lament] about wasting time..." is an interesting question. I believe that people actually do this. In fact I do this. I'm doing it right now ;-) This is not an issue of people being conditioned unthinkingly to accept that TV is a low value activity. I don't believe people believe this . I…

> This is not an issue of people being conditioned unthinkingly to accept that TV is a low value activity.

Yet this is exactly the issue, as evidenced by the parent commentor spouting out an automatic "gigahours wasted in front of TVs are sad", that I have been focusing on this thread.

> People are making rational value judgements about their TV watching habits

While people could be making explicit rational value judgements on top of implicit pre-existing socialized values (aka. borrowed beliefs), it is the later that I'm interested in talking about (and is relevant to this thread).

> As to why people do things that they believe is a waste of time? Why did you write that long list of words. Did you believe I would read it? Did you believe it would add value to the conversation? Did you believe it would add value to your life? Or did you do it without really evaluating whether or not it was a valuable thing to do?

I wrote it to clarify your confusion which you seemed to get at first ("I think I understood ...") yet went on to proceed on the same tangent, in the next two paragraphs, that prompted it in the first place.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#283

Post by taejo » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 10:19 AM UTC

wishinghand wrote: post #272

legostormtroopr wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you make bad decisions with money you get institutionalized? That sounds monstrous and unethical.

What's worse, having a guardian to help you spend money or sleeping on the streets?

"a guardian to help you spend money" is different from "institutionalized", which is what the parent and grandparent wrote. And sleeping on the streets is a real alternative to institutionalization that people can and sometimes do prefer.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#284

Post by fulltrottle » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 12:56 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #197

Verdex wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't work on anything once they get UBI this isn't really a problem. Currently, there are many many people who already don't do anything. They only do a little as possible to avoid getting fired OR they do periodically get fired from every job they ever hold once their employers realize they're always going to be a drain on productivity. Having these people on UBI would actually allow productivity to rise.…

I'm also worried about inflation. If you give everyone $X/month to spend on essentials but the supply of those essentials doesn't change, then a very likely outcome is that the price of essentials, in aggregate, will go up by $X/month. We already see some of this with student loans. The government decided that education is important, so it created federally-backed student loans that anyone can apply for, and effectiv…

+1 on this also. I'm not sure how this would play out. The prices might just normalize for the middle class, as if they ended up getting no UBI at all. But if rent and food prices go up across the board then it'll be as if it has no effect at all.

The upside is that the UBI will still support people that end up with financial shocks -- something unexpected happening in their lives. That little bit could help a lot

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#285

Post by fulltrottle » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:01 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #109

blfr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's the modern version of a minor landed gentleman who can pursue his interests. It's how we got science. Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else.

> Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else. That's sad only if we have the scarcity induced morality of associating "getting to have a living" with "earning it by working".

>Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that those people that'll end up doing nothing are already doing nothing. They're either unemployed, mooching of someone, or working some completely useless unproductive job that needs a slot to fill, that could easily be replaced by a machine.

As for actually productive people, I think very few of them would actually be happy with sitting around watching TV all day.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#286

Post by fulltrottle » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #154

blfr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's the modern version of a minor landed gentleman who can pursue his interests. It's how we got science. Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else.

I’m quite happy if the vast majority of people doing active harm to society by working for evil corporations just do nothing instead. Quite possibly a net improvement just that. I also imagine that if vast amount of people suddenly had more time on their hands there would be lot less need for services now optimized to keep them employed. Day care, schools and such would perhaps change into something more participator…

Yeah people definitely end up doing unethical things out of desperation, whether it's committing a crime or working at an ethically questionable business

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#287

Post by fulltrottle » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

ilovetux wrote: post #220

Verdex wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people just want to waste time watching TV would be the good outcome. I'm more concerned that it turns out that once money is no longer a concern that a large portion of people would spend their time trying to figure out how to cause problems for others. How many people would ignore education, socialization, and general societal cohesiveness if they knew that they would never have to worry about getting along wi…

I don't agree with this. People will still have to get along in order to survive. Two things: First, crimes usually come with financial consequences I doubt that this would change even with UBI. Secondly, its just as likely that the opposite becomes true and people learn to appreciate a sense of community much more deeply due to the lessening of competition. For instance intramural sports teams might become even more…

Why wouldn't crimes go down with UBI? people commit crimes out of desperation. The crime rate is substantially lower in socialized europe

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#288

Post by fulltrottle » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

shdh wrote: post #224

peatmoss wrote: post #12

My best argument for UBI is, “I’d love to be able to work on F/OSS full time.” Kudos for making it a reality. It may be scratching a personal itch, but the positive externalities to society are real.

Who would be a garbage man or do construction with UBI?

Prices would adjust accordingly. Why do you think people do those jobs now? being a garbage man pays pretty well

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#289

Post by dominotw » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #165

AdrianB1 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you smoking? Change it, it is bad for logic: any tax a company pays for you is from the money you bring in, not from the shareholders personal bank accounts. Nobody pays for the pleasure to have someone as an employee, but for the employee to deliver more than what is paid, otherwise you go under.

Reduce the payroll tax, and, what then? Same amount of money coming in, same going out on salaries, less going out on payroll tax. Now the business has options. It can buy more stuff; it can employ more people at similar salaries; it can give the owners more money. But the argument being made appeared to be that it will give its existing employees pay rises, to each one in line with how much payroll tax it was paying…

> It can buy more stuff; it can employ more people at similar salaries; it can give the owners more money.

Don't they also have to compete with other employers in the labor market for labor. How can they possibly keep paying the same salaries.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#290

Post by aklemm » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #197

Verdex wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't work on anything once they get UBI this isn't really a problem. Currently, there are many many people who already don't do anything. They only do a little as possible to avoid getting fired OR they do periodically get fired from every job they ever hold once their employers realize they're always going to be a drain on productivity. Having these people on UBI would actually allow productivity to rise.…

I'm also worried about inflation. If you give everyone $X/month to spend on essentials but the supply of those essentials doesn't change, then a very likely outcome is that the price of essentials, in aggregate, will go up by $X/month. We already see some of this with student loans. The government decided that education is important, so it created federally-backed student loans that anyone can apply for, and effectiv…

Yes, this is my main concern as well, and I haven't seen a satisfying answer to it. I'm bullish on UBI anyway because it answers a lot of questions of how to handle poverty and what to do with our societal wealth, but this one unanswered and fundamental question remains.