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What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

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Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of private firefighting is a particularly dirty one. In the past, fire companies would show up and demand payment before putting out fires. If a payment couldn't be made, the company might negotiate the purchase of the burning property at a steep discount. Later, insurance companies hired brigades to only put out fires on insured properties. Fire companies might have fought or sabotaged one another in ord…

Not everywhere, though. In Denmark, private operators have been handling emergency services since 1926; currently one company (Falck) is handling 65 percent of municipal fire brigades and 85 percent of ambulance services. No particular nastiness has been reported afaik.

Right, but that's not paid for by the end customer (at the point of use), is it? There could be single payer with private doctors they'll just get paid with public money, which is entirely different to Joe paying his doctor.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without even getting a quote beforehand Reminds me of this really good article. TLDR: Man tried to call a number of hospitals to find out how much childbirth is going to cost him and received no answers. https://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11591592/birth-cost-hospital-bi...

Well, in fairness to the hospitals, most of us here are software developers: how many times, early on, did somebody push you to give an "estimate" for a task that was underspecified and then try to hold you to that estimate? How many times did it happen before you learned to sidestep estimates unless you already knew everything that you needed to know beforehand?

Quite often, actually. This is why we pad our estimates.

It's inescapable, in that providing a description of the problem that is precise enough to generate a perfectly accurate estimate is very close to actually just being the solution. As you do the work, the estimated time to do the work approaches the time already spent doing it.

But a lot of customers want essentially the same thing--probably a glorified CRUD app with pretty management dashboards, and a workflow that exactly parallels the all-paper workflow first designed in 1965. If you do that sort of thing often enough, eventually you get a feel for how much it costs, even with the variation across customers.

Medicine has a great advantage over software in that decades of hyper-detailed hospital billing--set up in an effort to maximize the yield of patient cash-ectomies in the face of insurer pushback--can now be subjected to statistical analysis. All those diagnosis and billing codes can be plugged back in to the billing databases to discover the median cost for the care to treat a particular ailment. It isn't so hard to then say that I am willing to pay the median actual cost, plus an X% margin for the hospital, even if the actual cost is less, provided that the hospital also eats the difference if the cost is actually more. On average, if everyone did this, the hospital still makes enough money to stay in business.

Some diagnoses in particular, such as the one every woman on the planet is likely to get an average of 2 times during her lifetime, probably while between the ages of 16 and 50, are particularly amenable to cost averaging. If you can't quote the cost of a hospital childbirth to a patient with months of lead time, including the possibility of emergency surgery, you deserve what happens to you when every actuary can crank out an answer using a pocket calculator within 15 minutes of being asked to do so. You know how much it costs. You just don't want to say, because that takes away your leverage to charge more.

But ethically, the care provider should probably not have that leverage, because if they haggle, people can die. If you cure a disease that affects 3 people in 100000, we can talk about the size of your bonus. But if you (the hospital) are on your 3rd laparoscopic gallbladder removal in the same week, and still don't know how much it costs, I want the power to set the price taken away from you.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#283
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And only have emergencies around there and don't lose consciousness! It's simple math people!

Buy insurance that has good coverage for the places you are likely to be. Why is that a problem?

...because even if you end up at a hospital where your coverage is great, they often have doctors or providers that won't accept your insurance, and there's just about no way to know this beforehand.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#284
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's merit to investigating public health care. That line stops for me in eliminating private care I haven't seen a proposal yet that would eliminate private care (or even supplementary private insurance).

Canada did. It's not that far-fetched.

That's a stretch. There are still a lot of private clinics operating in Canada for various grey-area medical needs. Also, Canadian (really, provincial) healthcare doesn't typically cover dental, and there's a massive grey area in rehab and injury recovery where private clinics abound.

Certainly it is true, I agree, that emergency hospitals and ambulances are public-option only.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#285
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing one critical point though: If I through my own free will decide that I want a different plan I need to come up with that $1000 difference that my employer is kicking in for me. If I could get that $1000 back to spend on my own I'd have the ability to choose a $1300 plan instead of the $1200 plan (for $1100 because of the factors you sight), that extra $200 out of pocket is much more affordable than th…

Gee, that sure does sound like a private dispute between you and your employer to me. If you want to opt out of your company's health care plan then you're more than welcome to go attempt to negotiate with your manager about raising your salary by the amount of their health care contribution. Best of luck to you.

Such an agreement would likely be illegal under federal law, creating the risk for regulatory and civil sanctions for the employer.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#286
post #284
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada did. It's not that far-fetched.

That's a stretch. There are still a lot of private clinics operating in Canada for various grey-area medical needs. Also, Canadian (really, provincial) healthcare doesn't typically cover dental, and there's a massive grey area in rehab and injury recovery where private clinics abound. Certainly it is true, I agree, that emergency hospitals and ambulances are public-option only.

That's fair, and this is I suppose more what I meant.

My original statement might have been more accurate had I said "fully eliminate private care and private insurance".

Certainly with medicare for all both of those would be drastically reduced. With the medicaid buy-in they would both be moderately reduced.

I still think private care and private insurance will exist under both models, but like you said, they may be different in terms of what they cover.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#287
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy insurance that has good coverage for the places you are likely to be. Why is that a problem?

...because even if you end up at a hospital where your coverage is great, they often have doctors or providers that won't accept your insurance, and there's just about no way to know this beforehand.

So force hospitals and doctors to align on insurance acceptance, seems pretty simple.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#288
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Acquiring insurance does nothing to ensure that the facility you visit will accept that insurance. Does acquiring a credit card ensure that businesses will accept it? When you select your insurance plan, check who accepts it. Problem solved.

If you read the article you'll find that the problem is that while the hospital may accept your insurance, a particular doctor won't. Also for some reason some doctors don't even know what insurance programs they'll bill.

Seems easy to solve by forcing doctors to accept the insurance plans that their hospital does.

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's the same reason we don't have free market police and fire services. You simply don't get to "shop around" for emergency services, which includes privatized ambulance services (which are outrageously expensive, on the order of $12,000 for the ride I took when I had to take one, and it was a relatively benign one... thank god I had insurance). EMS is covered, but that's the Fire Department. After that, it…

The history of private firefighting is a particularly dirty one. In the past, fire companies would show up and demand payment before putting out fires. If a payment couldn't be made, the company might negotiate the purchase of the burning property at a steep discount. Later, insurance companies hired brigades to only put out fires on insured properties. Fire companies might have fought or sabotaged one another in ord…

Why is this dirty? If you don't pay for fire protection, not even through taxes, why does anyone owe you incredibly hard & extremely dangerous labor saving your house? Firefighting is not a safe profession.

(I certainly prefer publicly funded fire service)

Re: What I learned from reading a thousand emergency room bills

#290
post #199
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These private firefighters are generally contracted to government agencies. This is the same thing the US government or CALFIRE will do during any Type 1 incident. The same as a concert promoter hiring off-duty cops.

Ah, I understand that happens, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to private homeowners and insurance companies hiring firefighters. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-private-firefig...

Companies like Rural/Metro, traditionally ambulance/EMS companies, have expanded into private fire, in those places (one notable city is Grants Pass, OR).
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