NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#281

Post by foldr » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:39 AM UTC

cascom wrote: post #167

endorphone wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYC MTA has a lot of workers who do enormous amount of overtime, which explains the high pay. Add that a good percentage of employees will be relatively specialized trades. A cursory search shows a train driver making $31/hr, which doesn't seem excessive. I am also wary of the tactic of showing MTA workers as over-paid compared to a notoriously underpaid profession (e.g. teachers, who in this case held barely abo…

you mean $31/hr + medical + pension and medical in retirement... again for teachers you are forgetting the fact that they have similar generous benefits and only work 3/4 of the year...

Everyone should have medical + pension + medical in retirement. How did America get to a place where healthcare and pensions are regarded as perks?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#282

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:51 AM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #233

elhudy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People might see roads different from public transportation because they are directly affected by poor Management on the part of public transportation companies. If your bus is always late, you can't sit on the subway because the seat is soaked in piss, and there is no customer support for the $100 card you just purchased which isn't working, you might become disinclined to defend the exorbitant costs of public trans…

At the same time, I've yet to see an American complaining that the government is spending too much money on roads because it's riddled with potholes.

Usually the complaint is that road money is misallocated to surface fixes that result in more potholes in the long run. In some states and municipalities, this has to do with how government employees steer construction contract awards. I see wanting to change this as analogous to the desired reforms in public transportation.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#283

Post by neltnerb » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #265

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

Or the externalities are properly priced and the vast majority of the miles of transport are done by train, which would be cheaper if trucks had to pay for the road maintenance they cause. And cause less pollution (both in ton-miles and from reduced emissions during repaving). And the potatoes end up costing what they cost to get to you?

I'm not sure the potato subsidy is worth distorting the transport economics.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#284

Post by sotojuan » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

j-c-hewitt wrote: post #111

Cities like NYC are overcrowded and dysfunctional, but our financial system allows dysfunctional and failing systems to continue to operate up until the point to which they physically collapse and start either entering prolonged periods of obvious mechanical non-function and/or killing people in embarrassing numbers. Without all the bailouts, the MTA would have failed decades ago and would have had to have been restr…

This is somewhat ignorant.

NYC is not just for rich yuppies. The city is home to a lot of middle and lower middle class families as well as the working class who can’t just leave and rely on public transportation for work or school. Look beyond midtown and north Brooklyn and you’ll see that.

It’s entirely fair for people to want to improve things.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#285

Post by andrewshadura » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:57 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #274

avip wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.30$ CAD in Vancouver for 1.5h, you can easily cross the entire "city" on that price-tag.

Why is city in quotes?

I guess that's because the greater Vancouver area is made up of multiple localities officially designated as cities, even though in many cases there are no visible gaps between them anywhere other than on the map. The transport system is divided in zones, so travelling to, say, Coquitlam will cost you twice as much as travelling within the Vancouver downtown.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#286

Post by ZainRiz » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:00 AM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #265

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

I don't think these are your potatoes...

"Talk about a ‘superload’! Check out what just crawled along Washington highways"

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/talk-about-a-superl...

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#287

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #244

siculars wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take issue with your thesis. I was once standing in Marin county overlooking the Golden Gate bridge, there I read a plaque describing how the bridge was built ahead of schedule and under budget - in the 1930s (no computers!). Behind the Golden gate bridge in the distance you see the Bay bridge, built with tremendous cost overruns and delays measured in billions of dollars and many years, respectively. I'll make…

I take issue with your thesis. Every day, I ride to work on the Metro Expo line, which was built on time (actually early) and only delayed opening because a private company couldn't get its shit together and build the rail cars on time. I'll make the case that, as a nation, we're doing fine with the ability to deliver civil infrastructure projects on time and on budget, and to manage them once they are operational, i…

LA Metro is quite an expensive program. Cleveland has been working on the cost-coverage-service balance and arguably making the right choices, but not everyone is happy. I think Chicago might be a better example of a large system run efficiently. Overall, there is not any debate whether the US pays more per mile/capita than other countries, just whether that is something that can be improved.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#288

Post by cc439 » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:05 AM UTC

zjaffee wrote: post #220

InitialLastName wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

People keep saying that the street car will be worthless, but I simply don't buy it. It connects all of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city, where there have been increasing large amounts of effort around economic development within the areas that these places connect, where it will massively increase the value and in turn ability to build real estate along the waterfront, as one of the key determiners of l…

What does a streetcar do that buses (or articulated buses) can't if they're provided the same traffic priority?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#289

Post by ProfessorLayton » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:07 AM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #263

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

> People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Maybe. Reduced transportation costs to businesses permit lower cost goods to end consumers. Your car transporting you to work isn't your only reliance on the road grid.

You are correct, however, I was refuting the post that said that those paying gas taxes and tolls aren't covering their own maintenance costs. We're all subsidizing the industries that cause the most damage to roads, whether you commute by car or by train.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#290

Post by yholio » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:11 AM UTC

martinald wrote: post #254

closetohome wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought that fares should be more symbolic than a real source of revenue. They should definitely be low enough that even the poorest residents of the city can easily afford to travel on public transportation.

Why? Transport for London is close, if not past, covering operational (and some, but not all, very significant capital) expenditure from fares, property and advertising revenue. MTR in Hong Kong also is profitable, as I believe many Japanese networks are. Being run entirely from fares means you are not at the whim of politicians for subsidies and grants that can change overnight with an election, which makes it very…

I think the conclusion from this sub-thread is that the London subway is insanely expensive compared to most of the rest of the world. There might be local reasons that afford it such price gouging power, like the lack of any reasonable transport alternative and the nature of London's road infrastructure, congestion and parking fees etc.

A fee increase to that level in other cities might have the opposite effect of reducing ridership and total revenues, against a largely fixed expense base, condemning the subway to a real "death subway".

The externalities of transport are massive, if a small number of people device to spend 15 minutes more in traffic to save the 8 pounds subway fare, the costs to society are simply astronomical because now everybody else has to spend those 15 minutes more too to get to where they need to go, even if they don't have the option of public transport for their route.