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Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

nytimes.com

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Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#281

I used Bird, Lime, Lyft, and Jump scooters over the weekend in LA and they were great for getting around when I'd have otherwise considered driving (over a 45 minute walk). I tried a Skip scooter again when I got back to SF, and once again, it simply could not handle a minor (for SF) hill. I don't know what the solution is, since it seems like a bad idea to power them more to handle hills given the dangers that would…

excitingly, when I read the Bird terms of service (while they were still allowed in SF), they stipulated that you could not ride their scooters down hills. The scooter struggled to go up a (not particularly steep) hill, and I was breaking the rules going back down. I only rode the scooter the one time, after that, I just walked the two blocks to Judah to ride transit.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#282
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars address a different set of requirements. You use one when you need to transport many people, heavy cargo, tools, etc. A scooter does not solve any of those problems. A scooter does allow a single person and their possessions to travel at faster than walking pace without getting sweaty. In the CBD that is not necessary, since public transport works so well. In the suburbs a scooter is more effective.

Except you don't. You use them every single time you need to get somewhere, no matter how far or how many people.

Sure - because cars have been most peoples only practical mode of transport for decades and it has become their default.

Now that scooters and ebikes are offering a very practical alternative to driving, cars no longer need to be the default choice when travelling and we can expect their use to decline.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a cyclist too but I just don’t see how cities could be built in such a way that avoids stop signs unless everything is a roundabout. It’s annoying to stop on a bike; doesn’t mean I am justified in being lazy about it.

bikelanes on the level with the sidewalk which also merge into the crosswalks at intersections. For big intersections with traffic lights you can have under/overpasses for pedstrians and bicycles instead, which also allows more aggressive traffic light cycles for the cars.

I think putting them on level with sidewalks would be a serious danger for pedestrians, moreso than my risk as a biker. I do wish crosswalks were designed so that cyclists can make left turns on them

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#284
I am enjoying all of the comments here. I was lucky enough to study traffic-as-density-waves in younger days, and I think the future will be very positive. For this particular argument, I think the common themes to solve are lack of infrastructure, and the resulting safety hazards from casual users:

The setbacks: The infrastructure currently does not support the reality of the populous renting scooters (and bikes and mopeds). City planning was not developed around the recent technological availability of motorized personal transportation. Humans are irresponsible, and will leave scooters in disruptive locations. Humans are reckless, and a large portion won't abide by the established traffic safety. This "last-mile" transportation movement is a result of public transportation being a poor experience: slow-moving, dirty, congested, mismanaged.

Positive thoughts: "last-mile" transportation is highly effective if it could be implemented properly. Proper implementation would require responsible user behavior and infrastructure compatibility.

An anecdote: The company Scoot, at least in SF, gave access to moped-like vehicles for casual commute. Great idea. Give people the ability to personally navigate dense populations without vehicle ownership.

The problem: driving a personal motorized vehicle in dense large-vehicle traffic is a major responsibility. For instance, riding a motorcycle is extremely dangerous, and the vast majority of motorcycle riders take their safety incredibly seriously. They vehemently abide by traffic laws because small mistakes can lead to major physical consequences.

Scoot riders have unilaterally behaved like inexperienced idiots in traffic. Running lights, making last minute decisions, and ignoring speed of traffic sensibility The casual nature of that commute style leads people to behave like they are on bicycles, when they are riding around already-frustrated car and truck drivers.

The same me-first attitude was clearly visible when scooters were widely available. Even with city permits, people are still selfish.

Solutions:

There are conscious decisions to make city-wide improvements in efficient transportation. Mass transit combined with low-impact personal vehicles would be a utopia. But no large city was designed with that reality in mind, and the "disruptive" companies that make these technologies accessible, often with the "ask-for-forgiveness" mantra, are very disruptive to both the pedestrian reality and the detriment of too many cars.

Tl:dr, people are selfish and reckless, and even smart and available technologies will be abused unless infrastructure is designed to handle human habits.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#285
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam— how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? The point is that for short commutes and as a last mile solution to extend the coverage of public transit, scooters are amazing. And a rental system means they can stay downtown instead of needing to take up space both ways on the mass transit vehicle.

> Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam - how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? I'm not sure how that's relevant. You edited my comment to try and make it apply to cars, but it does not - cars are necessary both in the CBD and out for instances where you need to transport cargo etc, while scooters are less necessary in the CBD if you can use good public transpor…

> But why do they insist on deploying in areas where scooters are not wanted? Why not focus on the areas where they are most practical?

Because the most population-dense areas (NYC, SF) also happen to have the highest density of VC investment money.

I agree with you all the way up until here! I live in Miami, where single-passenger cars are king. Scooters would be great here. But the cities that would benefit most from scooters are not exactly overflowing with investment money.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#286

All of the commenters saying e-scooters shouldn't be allowed on sidewalks are right. Sidewalks in most densely populated US cities are too narrow and busy to safely allow a human gliding along at 15 mph within ~2 ft of a doorway where another human may be exiting, or past blind corners. The bigger issue is that e-scooter parking is fundamentally broken right now. Despite being told not to, users still park them in th…

I think a better, albeit more difficult and expensive solution, would be to implement space for scooters and things like them. In the US we only have two spaces: the sidewalk and the street. Adding a third space for bikes, scooters, and other small personal vehicles would go a long way to promote safety and efficiency.

I propose "MiMo" lanes (Micro mobility)

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#287
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cars seem unnecessary in densely populated cities. Most high-density areas have good public transport within a few minutes walk of your destination, and the roads are too busy to drive a car on anyway." FTFY

Cars address a different set of requirements. You use one when you need to transport many people, heavy cargo, tools, etc. A scooter does not solve any of those problems. A scooter does allow a single person and their possessions to travel at faster than walking pace without getting sweaty. In the CBD that is not necessary, since public transport works so well. In the suburbs a scooter is more effective.

Which American city are you living in where public transport is so excellent?

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#288

I am enjoying all of the comments here. I was lucky enough to study traffic-as-density-waves in younger days, and I think the future will be very positive. For this particular argument, I think the common themes to solve are lack of infrastructure, and the resulting safety hazards from casual users: The setbacks: The infrastructure currently does not support the reality of the populous renting scooters (and bikes and…

> Humans are irresponsible, and will leave scooters in disruptive locations.

This is not a hard problem to solve. Give scooter companies a ticket if their scooter is found somewhere disruptive. Let the scooter companies figure out how to cajole their customers to lower the disruptive-location rate to reasonable levels.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#289
post #180

Of the scooter companies that have launched in the Bay area, Spin were by far the least technically advanced - the scooters were basically unmodified Xiaomis, to the extent of still having power buttons. Rather than an integrated location and management system, location data came from a off-the-shelf GPS tracker spliced off the battery lines. Since the scooter control board had no cellular link, there was no mechanis…

Looks like Spin used their resources on business development instead of tech and it appears their plan worked.

I think this sums it up with some loose ends.

Freep at the Detroit Auto Show: [1]

>Bill Ford said the company sees an opportunity to build on its legacy and provide leadership in the rapidly changing mobility industry. Electrification is where the company is headed, he said.

>Unlike other companies, Ford wants to build on customer loyalty for established best sellers rather than try to market new brands that happen to be electric because it will speed up customer acceptance, Ford said.

But. Spin must still have //some// sort of technical knowledge Ford wants because they’re investing $11b into electrification vehicles with a product launch in 2020 and a lineup of 40 electrified and hybrid vehicles by 2022. [2]

——

[1]: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/detroit-auto-show/201...

[2]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-mot...

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I have never seen an actual scooter owner park badly. It's always a rental scooter company. I object entirely to them just seizing the public sidewalks as the parking lot for their private businesses. And then I object again at the tragedy-of-the-commons effect when scooter renters feel entitled to drop it wherever they're done with it.

Imagine how cyclists have felt for decades every time there's been a discussion about turning the free parking into a bike lane...

That's a poor comparison. Bike lanes are for public use; the space may change purpose, but it's still public. Companies scattering their privately owned rental gear on public space is a taking of that space.
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