Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat • Hacker News Board

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#281

Post by mukuro » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 12:55 AM UTC

bumholio wrote: post #210

username3 wrote: post #192

The best way to prevent cheating is by streaming games. Game streaming services are the future of multiplayer games. Edit: I mean cloud gaming like OnLive, not Twitch.

Doubtful. It just so happens that a well known intro to neural nets focuses on controlling GTA using only on screen data and simulated keyboard inputs. That basic principle is valid for any game and can be improved to an unlimited extent. Furthermore, approaching the endpoint as a dumb video terminal is very limiting, almost any real time 3d game will have visible latency on almost any internet link. At the very leas…

Let alone the internet, the latency is noticeable in local networks.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#282

Post by megaremote » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 12:56 AM UTC

exgamedev wrote: post #212

Back when I worked in games we would detect cheaters and then shadow ban. Quarantine them by only matching them into games with other cheaters. You may still have to ban them from certain elements of your game, like player economies (auction house, etc). But the more legitimate their experience looks the better. The idea is that instead of fully banning them and triggering the next iteration of the arms race, you tra…

How would you do that and ensure they don't interfere? Would have you have a separate server just for cheaters?

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#283

Post by reificator » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:04 AM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #262

m3rc wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... sure but they're also only willing to interact with the game when they're making the experience bad for everyone else.

Console speed-runs have different leagues where different levels of glitches are allowed - from 0% to any%. Maybe that could work here, possibly as a "competitive aimbot league".

I was under the impression that 0%, 100%, and any% were completion ranges, not different levels of glitches allowed.

0% means you make as little progress as possible, level up as few times as possible, pick up as few items as possible, and otherwise avoid progress other than completing the objective.

100% means you pick up every item, finish every quest, etc...

any% means you do whatever you have to in order to get through as quickly as possible.

That said, there are different levels of glitches, exploits, and external tools allowed in different speedruns. TAS (Tool Assisted) speedruns would probably appeal to this crowd.

For instance this run[0] of the NES Super Mario Brothers games where all four games use the same controller inputs and finish in the same second. (Host says 3 games, but it's really 4.)

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3358&v=EHfw-BEuR...

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#284

Post by Twirrim » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

nightski wrote: post #251

Twirrim wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Riot / League of Legends, these are still potentially customers willing to pay for skins etc, which is their income stream. I wonder if cheaters are as likely to pay for that stuff as non-cheaters?

A game with prevalent hacking/cheating is going to go downhill quick and lose it's established player base. Catering to these people in any way does not seem like a wise strategy.

Sorry, I was meaning my comment from the context of the conversation, where they'd be in a separate pool competing against each other. If cheaters want to cheat each other, it's no skin of my nose. Might still be a good revenue stream for Riot.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#285

Post by wumbovii » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:23 AM UTC

I wonder if there is any defense against adversaries that use computer vision and just digest the actual raw images and overlaying information, so there aren't any hooks into the software itself.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#286

Post by bastawhiz » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:28 AM UTC

s_m_t wrote: post #254

m3rc wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... sure but they're also only willing to interact with the game when they're making the experience bad for everyone else.

I don't think it is really the cheaters that degrade the experience, it is the knowledge (right or wrong) that cheaters exist that reduces trust that makes for not fun experiences. I've played online games for many thousands of hours over the past two decades and I can count the number of times I encountered a blatant cheater on my hands. Every time it actually happened people had a good laugh about it and either hop…

Counterpoint: Pokemon Go is incredibly infuriating to play as a new player because of cheaters. People spoofing their location fill up gyms, making it extremely difficult to earn in-game currency. They can also prevent you from effectively raiding with members of your own team, if spoofers from another team vastly outnumber you (reducing the reward from the raid).

Not only is it not fun, it's discouraging. And it's one of the big things that led to me quitting the game.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#287

Post by bastawhiz » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:30 AM UTC

wumbovii wrote: post #285

I wonder if there is any defense against adversaries that use computer vision and just digest the actual raw images and overlaying information, so there aren't any hooks into the software itself.

I'd imagine that periodically changing in-game assets to modify their appearance could act as deterrent.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#288

Post by frenchie14 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:31 AM UTC

wumbovii wrote: post #285

I wonder if there is any defense against adversaries that use computer vision and just digest the actual raw images and overlaying information, so there aren't any hooks into the software itself.

Overwatch changes the colors of its heatlh bars slightly every match so that aimbots can't lock on it

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/6imjce/todays_pa...

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#289

Post by invalidOrTaken » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

ABCLAW wrote: post #244

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>With such a cheat, roaches punch way above their weight, completely breaking the rock-paper-scissors balance of the game. Against marines, sure. But against siege tanks/disruptors? Sirlin's spiel about there being more counters than people think ( http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub ) seems applicable here.

Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit them. Running cheats is the ultimate scrub move - you change your play experience asymmetrically to benefit yourself rather than practicing at the game as offered to get better. There are a ton of interactions in games that are degenerate if performed at TAS leve…

>Is it, though? Sirlin's scrub is a strawperson player that will not adapt to any changes in the game, instead asking that the game itself is changed to suit them. Running cheats is the ultimate scrub move - you change your play experience asymmetrically to benefit yourself rather than practicing at the game as offered to get better.

That's a fair point; I agree. But the ancestors are debating a scenario with sanctioned mechanical aids. vkou classifies them as "cheats" above, but I humbly suggest that he used the term improperly, given the context.

Also, remember that we're talking about RTS games, which have an S component as much as they have an RT component. OpenAI can beat Dendi in the early phases of solo mid, but can a team of AIs beat Navi in a full game of DotA? Perhaps they will eventually, but if they do, it will take a whole lot more than just reaction time.

Re: Riot Games Approach to Anti-Cheat

#290

Post by ubernostrum » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #17

I'd love to see a game where cheating and scripting is the primary means of gameplay. By default the game would present a very simple UI but players would be encouraged to write and share scripts enabling varying levels and types of functionality. As a game developer your job then would be to write interesting enough systems for players to exploit to come up with interesting gameplay. I can imagine a scenario where d…