Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#281

Post by vmarshall23 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #262

vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

> Also, I think a lot of these laws also do another disservice in that they make people feel like they're doing something to help the situation which keeps them from actually solving the problem. Suppose home recycling is pointless and all it does is annoy consumers for no reason. Could that cause consumers to buy things in packages that are easier to recycle? It's possible that if government took care of that, consu…

To be clear, I'm not saying home recycling is completely pointless. I think it does a lot to raise awareness that "all this has to go someplace, so at least think about it". But that's PR, not a solution.

I'd prefer some sort of solution that directly impacted your wallet if you didn't give a shit about what waste you produce. I'm not sure what that is, but a similar example would be "save water during a drought" or just "save water" PR campaigns. Don't waste everyone's time with a bunch of easily-ignored signs and commercials. Charge 5 bucks a gallon for water. When your sprinkler watering the sidewalk all night costs you 1500 dollars, you'll be sure not to do that twice.

And you save money on TV commercials and waste less trees making posters. :-)

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#282

Post by king_nothing » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

Yup. Stanford ditched the five, yes, five (5) bins and opted to “sort off-site.” This is probably the best way to go. Also, mining garbage for resources may become profitable with enough automation.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#283

Post by cube4eva » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

The solution is charging people directly for trash pickup which creates more of an individual incentive to focus on product packaging. Also, you could offer incentives for collecting and (cleanly) burning plastic for energy (given its mostly petroleum based). Recycling programs today are a joke and often can’t breakeven

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#284

Post by cube4eva » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

The solution is charging people directly for trash pickup which creates more of an individual incentive to focus on consumer packaging. Also, you could offer incentives for collecting and (cleanly) burning plastic for energy (given its mostly petroleum based)

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#285

Post by king_nothing » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #252

dpkonofa wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a big part of it and it's amazing that they get away with it. Case in point: Blue Apron. Blue Apron positioned itself as one of the more "recycle-friendly" food delivery services to try and fight the stigma against every delivery having bags upon bags of individually wrapped goods by providing recycling services. As a former Blue Apron customer, I loved that I could separate stuff out (hard plastic, soft…

I wouldn't be surprised if "Pack the box back up and burn a bunch more jet fuel sending it back to New York" turns out to be even worse than just sending it all to the landfill. Given that they require air mailing boxes full of (mostly, by weight) frozen liquids all over the place on a weekly basis, I'm not convinced that these meal kit services can ever be made sustainable. Compared to that cost, worrying about recy…

Local micro JIT mass-production and local recycling. In fact, make containers and packaging more reusable akin to the old glass seltzer water bottles that don’t have to be melted down and remade for every use.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#286

Post by schiffern » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

smolder wrote: post #243

darkerside wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so they can enrich themselves That's the only thing I take issue with here. Characterizing this as intentional misconduct muddies the waters. The line between cutting costs and benefiting from an increased share price is long and winding. Don't blame people; examine systems. Where most of the money goes is back to keeping costs low for consumers, the same ones that are conscientiously keeping the tap water off.

Just because you can't easily put the blame on individuals doesn't mean they're not responsible. Our "system" is great at "blame laundering" or obfuscating ethical implications of decisions through diffusion of responsibility and removal of context at different boundaries. But the system itself is not a thing you can blame, as it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way. Leaders who don't act to change…

Stealing the term "blame laundering" btw.

Seminal systems theorist Donella Meadows mentioned in an excellent talk[1] that she (and other "systems thinkers") tends to avoid blame entirely, due to understanding the constraints and incentives people operate under.

[1] Timecode to her comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIoego-xVc&t=12m55s

Start of her talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMmChiLZZHg&t=7m03s

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#287

Post by pkulak » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

macintux wrote: post #259

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

I've seen this logic applied to trash in the wilderness, and it's maddening. "Don't blame the consumer for leaving trash everywhere, blame the manufacturers for creating non-biodegradable trash." Setting aside that even biodegradable trash is harmful to animals, it's ridiculous to absolve people of basic hygiene requirements. If you can haul it in, you can haul it out.

"Don't leave shit in the forrest" is far easier to understand and enforce, however.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#288

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

>"...the bill always comes due..."

Yes. But it's __always__ the consumer that pays that bill. Increase in the cost of anything simply gets added to the price.

Yes. You might get manufactures to change. But the consumer is still the one who pays.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#289

Post by harryVic » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #246

ada1981 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burying garbage in a big hole in the ground is not a sustainable solution.

Maybe it is? We can dig some pretty deep holes. It may not be pretty but seems to work.

It is just environmental debt that the next generation would have to pay.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#290

Post by bunderbunder » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #257

dreamcompiler wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blue Apron's cold packs are ridiculous. The goop leaks onto the food, they're a nightmare to dispose of, and they're heavy; probably 75% of the weight of a BA box is the cold packs. If they used dry ice, the boxes would be much lighter weight -- saving on shipping costs -- and they would simply evaporate rather than needing to be trashed.

The CO2 would enter the food, and make it taste like a weird kind of seltzer. Is all the food air sealed?

CO2 doesn't really go into anything to any significant degree unless it's under pressure.