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Anthony Bourdain has died

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Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#281

Post by lifeformed »

chatmasta wrote: post #66
Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

Suicide is inherently a selfish act, and I think that’s where the perception of it being “wrong” comes from. Sure you have the right to decide your own fate, but you should consider that you affect other people. In taking your own life you’re also fucking up the life of everyone who cares about you, forcing them into a state of grief and possibly causing them to blame themselves for what was ultimately a selfish act…

> In taking your own life you’re also fucking up the life of everyone who cares about you, forcing them into a state of grief and possibly causing them to blame themselves for what was ultimately a selfish act on your part.

People who kill themselves are extremely aware of this. Consider that as an indicator of how much distress they are in, not how selfish they are. They're in so much pain that they would inflict grief upon their loved ones to get out of it.

If a person is being physically intensely tortured, and they kill themselves to stop the pain, are they being selfish? They are under so much distress that their only option is to end it all. They would MUCH rather not be tortured and not have to die. Suicide is jumping out of a burning building because you don't want to burn. It's not something you do because you're upset.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#282

Post by [deleted] »

fipar wrote: post #128
protonimitate wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're getting at, but I think the reason that suicide is linked with mental illness is because it goes against our very nature as living beings. If I recall correctly, a majority of people who have 'failed' suicide (for lack of a better term) have stated that they immediately regretted attempting once it hits the point of no return. This is just an assumption, but I think the will to live greatly outweigh…

> I see what you're getting at, but I think the reason that suicide is linked with mental illness is because it goes against our very nature as living beings. So does contraception, yet we don't consider people using it mentally ill. I only say this to imply that "going against our very nature" isprobably not the main reason we link suicide with mental ilness, not to be disrespectful or anything. My mother killed her…

[deleted]

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#283

Post by lovehashbrowns »

smn1234 wrote: post #238
a5huynh wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is much, much more than feeling sad. Please take a look at what it means to be clinically depressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder

I've noted all the statements containing ' often accompanied ' and, ' may '

Your impression of how depression works is incredibly harmful, please stop repeating it. It's not a "just feeling sad for x amount of time" and it's not hopelessness. It's very frustrating as someone who is suffering from depression/suicidal thoughts to finally have the courage to talk to someone about this, only to be told to cheer up. Or go outside more! Or whatever.

Your statements just help perpetuate those types of responses.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#284

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #230
jm__87 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think Anthony Bourdain wanted to die and hurt the people who care about him? Suicide is what people do when they simply cannot go on any longer - this says nothing about whether they wish they could keep going or not.

I always thought of the act of suicide as making a statement. It really is the highest and ultimate statement one can make about their life and circumstances. It’s more than just giving up and not being able to go on any longer. The act itself has a lot of symbolic meaning.

As someone who's tried, that's bullshit. It was about escaping the unbearable pain. That's all it was: running away from an agony so extreme it encompassed every aspect of existence.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#285

Post by g051051 »

fipar wrote: post #163
g051051 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So does contraception, yet we don't consider people using it mentally ill. Boy, you got that backwards. Abstinence is what "goes against our very nature as living beings". Contraception allows us to engage in sexual activity without the consequences of unwanted pregnancy or STDs.

> Boy, you got that backwards. Abstinence is what "goes against our very nature as living beings". Contraception allows us to engage in sexual activity without the consequences of unwanted pregnancy or STDs. Where did I mention abstinence? While not my choice, I consider it just one more approach that falls under the 'contraception' umbrella, not sure how you made the link from my sentence to abstinence honestly.

You didn't mention abstinence...that's the problem. I was arguing against your claim of contraception "go[ing] against our very nature as living beings". Contraception is not going against our nature...it's the opposite, as it allows us to safely satisfy our biological urges. On the other hand, something like abstinence is definitely "against our very nature as living beings".

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#286

Post by funkjunky »

Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

I'd take it a step further and ask why we always consider depression, anxiety, drug abuse, etc. as an individual's "mental illness", when many of these illnesses seem to be inexorably linked to the broader societal sicknesses we find ourselves living under. Economics, politics, technology, cultural norms, community (or lack thereof), health and wellness; all of these things are directly or indirectly affecting the mental health of the population at large. Even if we double down on mental health treatment for individuals, it is ignoring the larger, more complicated issues that are likely at the root (of at least a significant contributor) of these problems.

And yes, I think it is a perfectly valid choice for someone to check out if that's what they want to do. Mental health or whatever aside, if you don't want to live anymore, for WHATEVER reason, I don't see why anybody else has the right to try to stop you.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#287

Post by chatmasta »

trophycase wrote: post #250
chatmasta wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is inherently a selfish act, and I think that’s where the perception of it being “wrong” comes from. Sure you have the right to decide your own fate, but you should consider that you affect other people. In taking your own life you’re also fucking up the life of everyone who cares about you, forcing them into a state of grief and possibly causing them to blame themselves for what was ultimately a selfish act…

You're telling someone who finds their life to be so unendurable that they need to be more considerate? Hell yeah it's selfish. And for a lot of people that do it, it's one of the few times they've done something for themselves. Everybody should have a right to die, and in a world where lives are constantly getting longer and society more oppressive with its demands, the right to die should be fundamental.

What about the argument that your rights are inalienable until they infringe upon the rights of others? Do people who care about me, or the people who invested so much time and money in raising me, not have a right to keep me in their life? By taking your own life you force people who care about you into a state of grief. I do not believe anyone has the right to force emotional distress onto another person.

I understand that from the perspective of someone who is suicidal, they might feel that they have nobody who cares about them, or that the people who do “would be better off” without the suicidal person in their life. But that thought alone is misguided and certainly not a justification for engaging in such a selfish act. Regardless of how the suicidal person feels, the people who care about them will be harmed by the suicide.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#288

Post by p3llin0r3 »

Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

I find it extremely distasteful, but this is an Internet forum and a fair question. Do not recommend bringing this up in casual conversation! This question will probably lead to ended friendships if you approach someone who has been suicidal in the past, or has lost someone to suicide.

Also it's pedantic in a really ignorant and dumb way, and not nearly as clever as you think it is.

There are examples of people taking their own life due to physical maladies which I can COMPLETELY understand, and choosing to end your own life kevorkian-style is understandable to most people: Robin Williams had dementia. His mind had basically completely gone before the end, his wife spoke of the rages and lack of understanding of what was happening around him.

But many people choose to end their own life when they are young, healthy, and in a pit of despair that they feel they will never escape. Depression is a mental illness which symptoms of hopelessness and suicidal thoughts. So there you go. That is why. Depression is a mental illness.

We as a society have deemed having no value of life, including your own, is aberrant behavior. I would argue that "deciding to commit suicide" for no other reason than you are tired of being alive, or want to "decide your own fate" is completely psychotic.

Also, saying "It's your choice" and doesn't affect anyone else is just insanely wrong. As I've grown older and lost people around more at a higher rate, it is ASTOUNDING the hole left behind when you lose a loved one.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#289

Post by oldsklgdfth »

okmokmz wrote: post #240
oldsklgdfth wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna stray away from talking about mental illness, cause I'm not a doctor and there are a lot of grey parts. Suicide is about giving up. There can be a number of reasons for throwing the towel in. For seemingly normal people, I tend to think it's because they feel like they have failed in a way that is irredeamable. Like the samurai guys, that have disgraced themselves and there is no way to go on without their…

>Suicide is about giving up. There can be a number of reasons for throwing the towel in. This is one of the most accurate depictions of suicide that I've heard: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in wh…

DFW was very insightful in his quote.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#290

Post by fipar »

g051051 wrote: post #285
fipar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy, you got that backwards. Abstinence is what "goes against our very nature as living beings". Contraception allows us to engage in sexual activity without the consequences of unwanted pregnancy or STDs. Where did I mention abstinence? While not my choice, I consider it just one more approach that falls under the 'contraception' umbrella, not sure how you made the link from my sentence to abstinence honestly.

You didn't mention abstinence...that's the problem. I was arguing against your claim of contraception "go[ing] against our very nature as living beings". Contraception is not going against our nature...it's the opposite, as it allows us to safely satisfy our biological urges. On the other hand, something like abstinence is definitely "against our very nature as living beings".

I think I get your point, and the misunderstanding may be that by "nature as living beings" I went beyond just humans. For the vast majority of living things, avoiding reproduction seems, to me, unnatural, hence it would go against our very nature.

Now, from a anthropocentric view of this contraception is quite natural as, like you well explain, it let us satisfy biological urges while reducing the risks and potentially undesired side-effects of them.

The point that I tried to make was that being for or against "our nature" does not feel, to me, to be a good measure of mental health.

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