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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#281

Post by Hendrikto »

flatline wrote: post #62
fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

> Where does it stop?

Wherever you want it to. This all-or-nothing approach to morality is stupid. Just because not every decision in your life may be 100% morally justifiable, that does not mean “throw all ethics over board”.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#282

Post by opportune »

reacharavindh wrote: post #65

It isn't wrong of Google to work their country's military. If not Google, some other company will take those contracts. They need to own up the responsibility for their decisions and of course be willing to put on with the media theme that "Google - the company that supplies AI tech to the military with possible usage in war". Denying that is what makes them look even fishier. I already distrust the company for anyth…

Nothing wrong with IBM helping the Nazis count prisoners. If not them, some other company would have taken the contract

This absurdly cowardly thinking is how people justify atrocities for money

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#283

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

flatline wrote: post #62
fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

>> If a hostile foreign power was to invade your country, what would you want the response to be?

This has nothing to do with the use of AI in weapons systems- like it has nothing to do with cluster munitions, landmines, biological or radiological weapons etc.

The US (or any country really) can "defend" itself and its overseas interests without having to resort to such tactics.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#284

Post by kome »

myth_drannon wrote: post #280
kome wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, why do Israelis love their army so much? I think to know the answer, but be aware Israel is a very special case for so many reasons. Edit: and the contrary is true, Americans loves their army, and they are all about that "thank you for your service" rhetoric, so perhaps just Israel top that.

Most of Israelis serve in army that gives them an inside perspective of what is Army, how it functions and its goals. Americans see it from the mass media perspective only, which creates the same feelings in people like when non-Israelis see the news on Gaza fighting - very superficial and inducing very strong emotions. IMHO.

Indeed, that's could be an explanation.

Also Switzerland has conscription / compulsory draft, and among a lot of Swiss, the army is seen with sympathy.

That said, I met a couple of Israelis that left the country for good because their experience with the army was so bad. I guess that there is some "voting with legs" going on.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#285

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #271
pizza234 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not wise enough to see where the balance lies. Oh, there is actually a very clearcut line for this; it's coincisively described by the following headline: "If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding, We'd Ground Our Fleet"[⁰] [⁰] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/if-a-dr...

I don't think its that simple. Weddings may constitute a collection of individuals key to a war effort and in striking a wedding one might prevent the devastation of a prolonged conflict. Also Middle Eastern weddings can occasionally be mis-interpreted as militant given the propensity for arms fire in celebration. If a drone strike hit an American wedding they would ground their _home_ fleet. Its a key difference. Th…

>> I don't think its that simple. Weddings may constitute a collection of individuals key to a war effort and in striking a wedding one might prevent the devastation of a prolonged conflict.

Same for a hospital (patching up wounded enemy combatants) or a school (educating future insurgents).

Or a nursery, football stadium, shopping mall, etc etc...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#286

Post by Marysville »

koolba wrote: post #276
pavelludiq wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a military in order to prevent other people from bombing your country. You absolutely do not need to bomb other people, and if fact if your goal is to not get bombed, not bombing other people might be your best option for a bunch of reasons[1]. If your goal is to systematically rob your population of wealth by dumping insane amounts of money into an otherwise mostly useless industry(you don't really need 12…

> You need a military in order to prevent other people from bombing your country. You absolutely do not need to bomb other people, and if fact if your goal is to not get bombed, not bombing other people might be your best option for a bunch of reasons. And sometimes the best way to save lives of your people is to bomb other people. That’s very naive. Not all antagonists are rational state actors. Terrorist orgs like…

You should perhaps read on what led to creation of these terrorist organizations. BBCs 'Hypernormalisation' would be a good start.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#287

Post by jrs95 »

fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Honestly anyone who pays U.S. taxes is contributing to this. So if any of you really give a shit I guess you should figure out a way to either leave and go somewhere more morally acceptable, or start living off of the smallest possible amount of taxable income so you can avoid contributing to the military. But hardly anyone is actually going to do that. Because as hard as you try, you care about your lifestyle more than what the military is up to.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#288

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

flatline wrote: post #62
fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

>> Believe me, there are a dozen other large defense contractors out there that will implement this if Google doesn’t, so it’s not like it’s a binary proposition.

Or for example, if I don't mug this old lady and take her handbag someone else will.

Then again, if I don't do it and you don't do it and nobody else does it, then nobody will do it at all.

Same for AI weapons- if nobody makes them there won't be none.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#289

Post by azangru »

musicalentropy wrote: post #279

For people who still don't see any problem in this, I have to remind you that ultimately the guy on top of the military hierarchy in charge for selecting the drones with AI targets is... Donald Trump. If you're not scared now, I don't know what to do anymore. At some point, I thought that the main goal of these big startups with tons of claims and wishful thinking was to make the world a better place and help humanit…

> I have to remind you that ultimately the guy on top of the military hierarchy in charge for selecting the drones with AI targets is... Donald Trump

How can we be sure that this is so?

- Can Trump make military decisions by himself (i.e. not choose among the ones that are offered to him by the military)?

- Hasn't it been established recently that the military have the right to refuse his orders if they are particularly crazy (see e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-tru...)?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#290

Post by azag0 »

Hendrikto wrote: post #281
flatline wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

> Where does it stop? Wherever you want it to. This all-or-nothing approach to morality is stupid. Just because not every decision in your life may be 100% morally justifiable, that does not mean “throw all ethics over board”.

Thank you.
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