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Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

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Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#281

Post by gnode »

frockington wrote: post #161
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, the GDPR stipulates that you cannot deny people access to you service if they do not opt-in to tracking, unless the service you provide is very specifically a tracking service. Tracking is not the primary service Facebook provides to their users, so the GDPR will not allow them to bar access for users who do not opt-in to being tracked.

And how would Europe make an American company offer services to Europeans? Is there a legal pathway to do this or would their court summons be used to level out chairs in FB HQ?

They can't force Facebook to provide any service, but they can present them with an ultimatum: decouple use of the platform from consent for use of personal data for tracking, don't offer said service, or pay a fine.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#282

Post by icebraining »

the-dude wrote: post #280
icebraining wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same at least in Portugal, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and France.

Not true anymore in every NL station : we have entrance gates, no ticket, no entry to the boarding area.

Curious. Is that very recent? I was in Amsterdam last year and while I remember the ticket validators, I don't remember them being mandatory; I think we've even passed them to cross the station to the other side, to catch the ferry.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#284

Post by kodablah »

newscracker wrote: post #230
pgwhalen wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though you never hear the counterpoint on HN, it’s important to remember that FB’s behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad - people can have different views on these things.

I agree that people can have different views on these things for various reasons. But I don't see how "FB's behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad", unless one considers only the profit motive as prime without giving any thought to other factors. Can you expand on that?

Taking all behaviors as a whole, from operating the network to the nefarious things they do to make money, many would argue that they are not bad. Preferred over the actual alternatives (e.g. unstable networks, not existing at all, etc) for many in fact.

While I am not a user and don't condone their practices, lots of people are happy and willing participants. Whether they need to be protected from themselves ala seat belts and cigarettes is a societal decision, but right now it's clear the citizenry has a favorable view of them even despite the onslaught from legislators and overarching media narratives.

Going on a tangent here...But I've been thinking about this. At some point it's going to come to a head between these two views of FB if the squeakiest wheels also influence laws. If you rock people's comfy boat too much, there will be backlash.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#285

Post by hiram112 »

inetknght wrote: post #149
juxncxrlos wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about memes pages? that's the only reason I keep my account. Also, I don't even see adds with and Ad-blocker. What are they going to try to sell me, a meme page subscription?

They aren't trying to sell you anything. They are selling you to others. They are selling you to not just advertisers but selling your profile to companies that are able to use your profiled information to make their own decisions about things. It's not just about advertisements. Imagine if you didn't serve a single advertisement and instead bought profiling information about people. You could use that profile inform…

I've been (down voted) for saying this before: it is not just ads that they are selling.

The big money is going to be selling your profile to everyone, including insurers - health, auto, home, etc. Good luck getting a good deal when they know how much you drink and the food you eat.

To the government - eventually that guaranteed Social Security and 401k will be means tested, and it appears you're spending on luxuries that disqualify you.the possibilities are endless.

And I know for a fact that there are more than a few HN readers who work for companies mediating this data.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#286

Post by BlackDeath3 »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #254
BlackDeath3 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I'm not talking about withdrawing from the market, I'm talking about remaining in the market and being allowed, as a private company providing a private service, to freely associate. I have no qualms with a competitor starting up to serve those denied by Facebook, but let's not muddy the water by equivocating a monopoly as a result of anti-competitive practices with one that forms simply because nobody wants t…

Restrictions on how private parties can provide a private service are ubiquitous in every market. In the US, home-cooked meal startups get shut down because their uninspected kitchen doesn't meet commercial standards. In Ethiopia, you need a local entity with an IT license (seriously) to import a Dell server that you've already purchased. In Canada, you can't agree to an employment contract that allows for zero-notic…

> Restrictions on how private parties can provide a private service are ubiquitous in every market...

I'm speaking more about "ought" than "is" here. I don't see any reason why Facebook should have to choose between serving everybody, regardless of the regulatory burden that it places on them, and taking a hike from the global market entirely. I'm not saying that they won't be forced to do so anyway.

> ...I don't think most of the people who find Facebook convenient for coordinating groups actually choose the tracking knowingly and willingly (at best begrudgingly)...

And yet, they've probably chosen it all the same. In the hypothetical scenario where somebody has a metaphorical (or literal) gun to somebody's head, forcing them to use Facebook, I don't see how Facebook themselves can be blamed for this, and simply chalking this sort of thing up as a "negative externality" and saddling Facebook with the burden seems to be weaselly way of making Facebook to the will of somebody who just can't bear to give it up.

You can't always get what you want. Some of us would do well to internalize this a bit.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#287

Post by KozmoNau7 »

zerostar07 wrote: post #60
gonmf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no legal right to Facebook, but if Facebook wants to do business here, it has to abide by our rules. And our rules are very simple, you cannot deny service because the user doesn't allow tracking if tracking is not necessary for your service to work. And it isn't in this case, it's only necessary to deliver higher paying ads. Since they are being selective on the users they accept based on being tracked, the…

What is facebook's business? Targeted advertising. They don't sell you a friends management system for $0, they sell targeted ads to people who expect to receive targeted ads, and tracking is necessary for that. The same can be said about google's search service. The search still works, but adsense and adwords won't work without your private info. And google can claim it doesn't sell search, they sell ads.

It's not strictly about which services you are selling, it is about which services you are providing, and Facebook absolutely provide a social network website/app. Google absolutely provides search and email.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#288

Post by kodablah »

rosser wrote: post #279
kodablah wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does that square with it being an implicit goal of most companies to own their entire market, eliminating that choice? Oversight. If you want meaningful competition and don't have it due to harmful monopolization, that's the government's problem to solve. Nobody's asking for self-regulating companies here. It's very important to understand which forces can or cannot actually eliminate competition and choice. If…

The government which we're "stuck" with, and which we shouldn't trust because it's actively dangerous to our freedoms, is what's supposed to protect those freedoms from predatory companies? How's that working out for us?

Which is why I argue they are oftentimes less trustworthy than corporations due to the latter's more limited scope. I'm not clear on the argument you are making here. Regardless, the one I am making is that companies are often more trustworthy than governments (the original question) especially since there is technically a level higher in the authority hierarchy.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#289

Post by exolymph »

newscracker wrote: post #230
pgwhalen wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though you never hear the counterpoint on HN, it’s important to remember that FB’s behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad - people can have different views on these things.

I agree that people can have different views on these things for various reasons. But I don't see how "FB's behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad", unless one considers only the profit motive as prime without giving any thought to other factors. Can you expand on that?

Well, for one thing, nothing is objectively good or bad. Value judgments come from people, and people have widely varying perspectives.

For another, the reason there's no mass exodus from Facebook is that Facebook users do not perceive the company as harming them. They perceive it as a useful service for staying in touch with friends and family. The utility it provides outweighs privacy concerns, because most people do not care about digital privacy. They care that no one is watching them go to the bathroom or have sex, but they do not care whether advertisers can target them based on aggregated information.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#290

Post by the-dude »

icebraining wrote: post #282
the-dude wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true anymore in every NL station : we have entrance gates, no ticket, no entry to the boarding area.

Curious. Is that very recent? I was in Amsterdam last year and while I remember the ticket validators, I don't remember them being mandatory; I think we've even passed them to cross the station to the other side, to catch the ferry.

It is recent, not everywhere and loosely enforced. But the intent is there.

The situation in A'dam : I guess it is impractical and unwanted to close the corridor from the one end to the other.

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