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Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

nytimes.com

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Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#281

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

282883392 wrote: post #244
cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except this Bitfinex thing shows that while an amount of bitcoin can't be manipulated or counterfeited, their actual value is relatively easy to influence. This is because the only usage Bitcoin has left is a lottery ticket. Bitcoin used to actually have utility value (payment) but now with that gone, it is easy to manipulate the price because its value is built on people's perception only. If Bitcoin was still bei…

>If Bitcoin was still being used to send money across borders, to buy things with super low transaction cost, send money without censorship-which by the way used to be why a lot of people saw value in it in the first place--it wouldn't be so easy to manipulate the value because any fool can see that there obviously is value in there. Bitcoin had all those things - not that long ago. You need volume to ensure stabilit…

> You need volume to ensure stability, not utility

Wow you've drunk some serious kool-aid there.

You need both. A huge volume of nothing is still nothing.

The "you need volume for stability" argument is what pro-bitcoin people used to say when Bitcoin could actually be used as a currency. Many people would say "Bitcoin isn't a legit currency because it's so volatile", and we would say "No, that's only because there isn't enough Bitcoins out there yet compared to USD for example". This was a valid argument and used to be my go-to-comment for convincing people. But that's only when Bitcoin can be used for something.

Now Bitcoin is like a pet rock, it's scarce, but very risky because the value that comes from the scarcity is based on people's perception only and not based on utility.

My point was that if the value is based only on perception (speculative value), this is very susceptible to manipulation.

I can't believe people actually believe just because something is scarce it's automatically valuable.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#282

Post by Slansitartop »

conanbatt wrote: post #278
Slansitartop wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confused about the differences between a law and a regulation. As I understand it, at least in the US context, regulations are rules specify the finer details of the implementation of a law. You can be jailed for the violation of a regulation [1]. > I wish we had that, but we can't, we have to live entire generations with laws designed by previous ones. There's an expression that describes your attitud…

> I think you're confused about the differences between a law and a regulation. As I understand it, at least in the US context, regulations are rules specify the finer details of the implementation of a law. You can be jailed for the violation of a regulation [1]. Sure, but violating the regulation has no victim. If you sold lemonade on a stand in california, you would be breaking regulations but there is no victim t…

> Tell that to all the people doing 25+y for doing or dealing pot. They must agree with you!

> I'm no expert on arms dealing but isnt the US Gov the one that gives out the most weapons to radicals? I thought the US as a successful exporter of weapons..and certainly of violence!

I feel like you're just going for cheap points, but the thing is you don't even get those if you can't stay on topic. It's kinda pointless to talk with you if you keep running off on random tangents. Aren't we talking about financial regulation?

Actually, I'm not even sure if there's anything to your comments beyond an emotional hostility to the concept of regulation or something represented by it, so maybe we're not even communicating at all.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#283

Post by paulmd »

rebuilder wrote: post #90
cagenut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dead center, first row of their home page: Every tether is always backed 1-to-1, by traditional currency held in our reserves. So 1 USD₮ is always equivalent to 1 USD.

Interestingly, that doesn't actually say it's backed by USD reserves, any "traditional currency" in sufficient amounts would satisfy their claims.

Tether doesn't have $2.3 billion Euros in reserve either.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#284

Post by s73ver_ »

conanbatt wrote: post #245
s73ver_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you personally weren't consulted on those regulations doesn't mean that they weren't come to by people who were democratically elected. And you agreed to abide by the laws of a jurisdiction by living there. Otherwise, what's to stop you from saying, "I never agreed not to kill people"?

> And you agreed to abide by the laws of a jurisdiction by living there. Otherwise, what's to stop you from saying, "I never agreed not to kill people"? Nobody agreed to not kill people either. Thats why killing is also legal in many circumstances. Also arguing that we all agreed to the rules there in would mean that if slavery were legal it would be ok, becase we all agreed to it. But thats another topic. The point…

"Also arguing that we all agreed to the rules there in would mean that if slavery were legal it would be ok, becase we all agreed to it"

No. That's a poor argument that, in this case, falsely equivocates slavery with financial regulation.

"I dont want to ask the SEC any permission to buy tethers."

That's not what's happening in the least. But if Tether is a scam, then it will be shut down, as it should be. And no amount of "freedom" will justify running a scam on other people.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#285

Post by wcoenen »

nickbauman wrote: post #186
simias wrote: post #84

The somewhat ironic part is that one of the core concepts of Bitcoin is that you can't counterfeit it. You can mathematically prove how many coins you own, if somebody sends you 3 BTC then once it's been validated on the blockchain you know that the money is now yours, they can't have lied, it can't bounce like a cheque Except this Bitfinex thing shows that while an amount of bitcoin can't be manipulated or counterfe…

The problems we're seeing with cryptocurrencies are utterly unsurprising if you know what money really is and how it actually works. I think people who are excited about cryptocurrencies assume that money is merely a tool to facilitate transactions between parties of people. The fundamental model of this is two people bartering goods, lol, in some sort of imagined "forest primeval" before money was invented. That mon…

> if you know what money really is and how it actually works

OK, I'll bite. What is money really and how does it actually work?

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#286

Post by HockeyPlayer »

artursapek wrote: post #118
rebuilder wrote: post #23

Watch for a premium on the BTCUSD rate on Bitfinex. That'll be the market believing there's a significant risk of insolvency. I'm surprised there's no premium yet.

You can also watch confidence in USDT directly by watching its USD price on Kraken: https://trade.kraken.com/kraken/usdtusd

A poster just above reports being unable to short USDT on Kraken, so that market may not be reliable.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#287

Post by conanbatt »

Slansitartop wrote: post #282
conanbatt wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you're confused about the differences between a law and a regulation. As I understand it, at least in the US context, regulations are rules specify the finer details of the implementation of a law. You can be jailed for the violation of a regulation [1]. Sure, but violating the regulation has no victim. If you sold lemonade on a stand in california, you would be breaking regulations but there is no victim t…

> Tell that to all the people doing 25+y for doing or dealing pot. They must agree with you! > I'm no expert on arms dealing but isnt the US Gov the one that gives out the most weapons to radicals? I thought the US as a successful exporter of weapons..and certainly of violence! I feel like you're just going for cheap points, but the thing is you don't even get those if you can't stay on topic. It's kinda pointless to…

I didnt bring guns and arms dealing into the debate, that was you. I mentioned the war on drugs as an example of old laws that would not be voted on today, and the argument of keeping them because they must be good is destroying lives today.

The SEC is killing people today as well. Its barring most of the world on investing in the US on startups that could lift people out of poverty, increase quality of life and even help in fields like medicine, etc. And the ICO market is an example of how much demand for investment there is. The lesson is not that unregulated markets have scam artists and fraudsters, that we always knew, what is new is that the regulated market is silently opressing.

And to add insult to injury, the most egregious cases of mis-regulation have made the regulators screw over the general population instead of the institutions they failed to regulate.

On this very site ,most people can invest in the startups they read about everyday and work for everyday.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#288

Post by conanbatt »

s73ver_ wrote: post #237
conanbatt wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most interesting thought to me right now is how the situation will develop if or bitfinex/tether crashes the market hard. I am not a fan of the SEC getting involved. Taking crypto as an experiment, I think it is better for the market to take a hit and then find organic solutions. If the SEC gets involved and busts bitfinex/tether, the community loses the opportunity to become 'unbailable'. Yes , people will lose…

I fail to see the need for such "experimentation" considering that this has all happened before, and those lessons were learned. That, and generally those who advocate that something should "take a hit" are usually not the ones who are going to be harmed by it.

I would argue the exact opposite, the ones that propose regulation are often benefited by it. For example, who could benefit from regulation of bitfinex?

You? Or Coinbase?

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#289

Post by s73ver_ »

conanbatt wrote: post #288
s73ver_ wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the need for such "experimentation" considering that this has all happened before, and those lessons were learned. That, and generally those who advocate that something should "take a hit" are usually not the ones who are going to be harmed by it.

I would argue the exact opposite, the ones that propose regulation are often benefited by it. For example, who could benefit from regulation of bitfinex? You? Or Coinbase?

Both. Unless you are trying to insinuate that having protection against obvious scams is a bad and selfish thing.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#290

Post by Daishiman »

conanbatt wrote: post #235
kadenshep wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and then find organic solutions. I don't understand this perspective. You have a proven, verifiable, simple solution right in front of you. Then you ignore it with some skimpy platitude to dive right into economic mythology. Regulation is the correct solution.

I disagree. If the state wants to offer some certification of regulation and an exchange is willing to go through that process to capture consumers, let them be. Thats not bitfinex nor tether. Let people choose. If the SEC had its way, bitfinex would have not existed and millions of people wouldn't have been served.

History has shown that in certain matter people will, over and over again, commit systemically wrong choices.

So no, in some things we're all in this ship together and as long as that's the case I want people to not collectively fuck things up.

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