James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#281

Post by jgh » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #244

jgh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice none of those options include "admit he was wrong and apologize". I'm sure he doesn't have to work for a top-tier tech company either.

Has that worked in the past? I've never made a fuckup of nearly the same magnitude, but the times I made a mistake in public apologizing always made things worse.

Has what worked in the past? Admitting you were wrong and apologizing? Sure it's a good way of resolving conflicts if you were actually wrong. People grow and change throughout life, I don't think that being a knucklehead in the past necessarily means you're a knucklehead now.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#282

Post by wellboy » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #41

ebbv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

A = distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women B = biological causes ... A differs in part due to B ... ... reason why we don't see equal rep in tech/leadership. Then he goes on to say maybe if we take A into consideration when designing tech and leadership roles , can we solve this dilemma. He does not mention performance, just preference.

Excellent summary.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#283

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #99

ng12 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little grating, to be honest. The tech world loves statistics and empirical research until it clashes with their world view.

What a ridiculous comment. (a) There is no consistent world view for tens of millions of people distributed across the globe, (b) there is no research, none, that specifically states that women are genetically predisposed to be less suited to engineering and (c) there is no clear rules about what aspects of our biology are required to be a great engineer.

it is not about who is the greater engineer. it's a fact that women on average prefer to go more to fields other than engeneering.

Some state that this a culture problem and that there is a hidden bias.

Some also state that women might go to other fields because they have a greater capacity at empathy. which is a proven fact. women that go and study those fields won't apply to cs positions they will apply to positions in their fields.

and by the way there was a study that indicated that women get short-listed less in sex-blind hiring

"The trial found assigning a male name to a candidate made them 3.2 per cent less likely to get a job interview."

"Adding a woman's name to a CV made the candidate 2.9 per cent more likely to get a foot in the door."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...

this is getting downvoted with no replies if someone has a porblem with what I said, I'm happy to debate.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#284

Post by lukev » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

verroq wrote: post #222

lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

There is a difference between women are on average less capable (or what your interpretation seems to imply - women programmers are worse than men) and what is written which are there may be less qualified female candidates due to biological differences. The latter is an obvious statement however people seems keen to deliberately misinterpret it to fuel their rightous outrage. I’ll use high jump as an example. Suppos…

Two things:

1. Saying that women are "on average" worse programmers is exactly why people are upset with him. He doesn't need to be some kind of insane absolutist in order for what he said to be very problematic.

2. Even if there are statistically significant sex differences with regard to programming ability and inclination, there are also historical and sociological factors that are working against women in tech. Damore's memo was explicitly a negative reaction against some of the programs designed to counteract these systemic issues. As such, even if he were 100% right about the sexual dimorphism (which he isn't, see my other post in this thread), using that as an argument against trying to solve the sociological problems is not only logically unsound, but exhibits bad faith and bad motivations.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#285

Post by jrs95 » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

mightykan wrote: post #231

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.” Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).

> I am glad that his life is ruined

There’s nothing toxic about that!

As for whether or not he knew what he was doing...he may have written this thing, but he did so in an area that was designated for that sort of thing. He wasn’t the one that started emailing it to the entire company. So it’s fair to say he thought he was just having a discussion in the topic with whatever this skeptic group at Google was, and other people decided to turn it into a national political issue to get him fired for it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#286

Post by echoBravoDelta » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #248

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

The fact you'd like a gay liberal as right-wing is disconcerting but I agree, and independently, came to the same conclusion that is is strange how many shows he popped up on so fast.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#287

Post by ddlsmurf » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #248

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

Or maybe the "left-wing" like tech crunch just flat out lie about him repeatedly. I don't appreciate any the right wing youtubers you cite, but judging by the quality of this article, I'm glad he had other opportunities to speak. In this instance I do think the left wing is stifling expression and I can't abide by that, if you think I'm exaggerating, read the memo he didn't publish but request internal criticism of, and he was fired for it by google.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#288

Post by moduspol » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #209

paulgb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the quote you pulled not saying the same thing as this from Damore's memo? > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Edit: ebbv beat me to it

Let's not forget that the metrics for "ability", especially in a field like software engineering, are highly unscientific. People barely have any idea about how to hire a software engineer, much less judge someone's true "ability". Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on…

Why is it that one side gets to make claims accepted blindly as fact unquestionably (unequal representation of women is solely because of sexism) and the other side must be objective / scientific?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#289

Post by myaso » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

He got crucified because he didn't make anybody laugh -- now he will be paraded around as a poster boy for the alt-right or w/e. Aren't autistic traits highly prelevant in programmers? Isn't it also true that those traits will show up much more often in men compared to women -- a token factoid curtesy of wikipedia. Also anecdotally, how many male devs do I know that started hacking at 13 -- a lot. How many women? Personally none, but I know colah from Google Brain is one example, and a rather extreme data point too -- at the extreme end of the scale it's irrelevant anyways, a successful female comp sci prof or a female researcher will be picked. Unless there is some extremely good reason like Google drained all the capable men already out of the ecosystem there doesn't seem to be rational reason to explicitly optimize their hiring pipeline for the wrong demographic -- maybe they don't optimize it like that, but a lot of people have the perception that they do which will get you the same result in the end.

Update: one moment this gets up voted and the next moment it gets down voted and this repeats, is anybody willing to actually argue? Call my bs, I have thick skin.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#290

Post by viridian » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #248

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

This is a minor aside, but I don't think Joe is a conservative. I think that he said during the midnight election comedy stream that had he not promised to vote for Gary Johnson when he came on the show, that he would've had to pull the lever for Hillary. He doesn't like social justice stuff, but other than that, he's kind of a big hippy.