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Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

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Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#281

Post by akvadrako »

sidko wrote: post #92
varbo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to send $700 in bitcoin to purchase something. It's going to cost me $65 to buy the coins and several hours of time. Of course, I am banned from Coinbase for an innocous bank mistake. There's literally no other options to buy coins at 1-2% in the US.

Here's a list [1] of 400 exchanges you can buy Bitcoin from, 34 of trade BTC/USD. This doesn't include some sites that charge a premium and allow you to buy with debit cards. There are also Bitcoin ATMs, over 1000 of them in the United States [2]. [1] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets [2] https://coinatmradar.com/

That's not a useful response. ATM's will likely have over 1-2% in fees, and just trading USD isn't enough - you need a way to get your money in and out.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#282

Post by Frogolocalypse »

geezerjay wrote: post #279
Frogolocalypse wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In your opinion, what is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin? I use the 1:10000 rule ( https://xkcd.com/1053/ ) for this argument. It is my opinion that the intrinsic value of bitcoin is far far greater than anyone really comprehends. People generally are too focused on people just buying and selling the asset, but not about the cryptographic proof, and incentive structure that perpetuates the network functioning. So wh…

> It is my opinion that the intrinsic value of bitcoin is far far greater than anyone really comprehends See? It's all speculative bullshit, where people who took a bet on bitcoin increasing price and expect to profit from this price increase are trolling other fools to keep pumping the bubble until they cash out. Bitcoin is quite clearly a pump-and-dump scheme, and here we see some users cheering fools to keep on pu…

I don't think you read past the first sentence.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#283

Post by josh2600 »

geezerjay wrote: post #279
Frogolocalypse wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In your opinion, what is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin? I use the 1:10000 rule ( https://xkcd.com/1053/ ) for this argument. It is my opinion that the intrinsic value of bitcoin is far far greater than anyone really comprehends. People generally are too focused on people just buying and selling the asset, but not about the cryptographic proof, and incentive structure that perpetuates the network functioning. So wh…

> It is my opinion that the intrinsic value of bitcoin is far far greater than anyone really comprehends See? It's all speculative bullshit, where people who took a bet on bitcoin increasing price and expect to profit from this price increase are trolling other fools to keep pumping the bubble until they cash out. Bitcoin is quite clearly a pump-and-dump scheme, and here we see some users cheering fools to keep on pu…

I wrote this a few days ago to talk about the mania (Disclosure: I operate Crypto Lotus, a crypto hedge fund):

PSA: I generally can't give you advice about specific crypto investments as much as I want to for multiple reasons related to my job.

This is my one statement on the market: It is loud.

Crypto is moving very quickly and I regard it as the riskiest asset class that is available today. To invest in crypto is to accept that currency can be narrative driven and that juxtaposition requires accepting that currency can be simultaneously worth any amount and no amount. The things that favor crypto as an asset class are that there is lots of positive news, a reasonable long-term narrative, and some of the largest assets are deflationary in design. The things that are unfavorable to crypto are that the pricing is uncorrelated to observable reality, the regulatory risk, and the cryptographic risk.

Overall, it is a bizarre, whimsical space to be in right now, but it is also terrifying. Don't tread lightly, and please don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

Thar be Dragons.

______

For clarity, the reasonable long-term narrative is that bitcoin is easier to work with than existing banking infrastructure for some transactions. In particular, if you are a high net-worth individual negotiating with a nation state or a person of low means who conducts low-trust transactions, bitcoin serves you better than most other means of payment. For the vast majority of people who don't fit in those two categories, bitcoin isn't really useful.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#284

Post by josh2600 »

westurner wrote: post #183
chollida1 wrote: post #10

My guess is that this is probably pretty meaningless. There are a few things going against them. - The CBOE and CME are both much larger futures exchanges and are going to be offering futures first - since you can't net out futures contracts from different exchanges this means they tend to become winner take all > One way Nasdaq seeks to differentiate itself seems to be in the amount of data it uses for pricing the d…

> One way Nasdaq seeks to differentiate itself seems to be in the amount of data it uses for pricing the digital currency contracts. VanEck Associates Corp., which recently withdrew plans for a bitcoin exchange-traded fund, will supply the data used to price the contracts, pulling figures from more than 50 sources, according to the person. That appears to exceed CME’s plan to use four sources, and Cboe’s one. Nasdaq’…

In general, when the CME enters a market for futures, they take all of the air out of the room. I don't think it's realistic to believe NASDAQ can compete with them.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#285

Post by billfeng »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #275
billfeng wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the intrinsic value of Bitcoin the fact that it is decentralized and that no government or other entity has direct control over it? Sure it's cryptographically secure, but what is the difference between that and a regular bank using encryption on their money transfer network? I think the reason it's hard to say whether or not Bitcoin is worthwhile is that there has never been a decentralized currency at this sc…

> Sure it's cryptographically secure, but what is the difference between that and a regular bank using encryption on their money transfer network? Bitcoin is the network to deliver it too. I say that right there.

Yea but what makes the bitcoin delivery network any better than a bank's delivery network, unless you take into account of the fact that it's decentralized? Banks deliver money all the time.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#286

Post by patrickk »

DennisP wrote: post #156
pera wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which community?

Ethereum. Admittedly there's a dark side of scammy ICOs, but there's also lots of open source coding and idealists trying to change the world. I don't think Ethereum is the only cryptocurrency community like this, it's just the one I'm involved in.

One of the best things about Ethereum is how Vitalik focuses mostly on important technical solutions to difficult problems, notably scaling the network to millions/billions of tx/s - crucial to Ethereum's future success. He rises above the noise, it's really impressive given his young age.

https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/931323377008046080

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#287

Post by erkkie »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #248
vasilipupkin wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biggest owner can steal smaller owners money, maybe, depending on the POS design. But that would make no sense. I mean the biggest owners have the biggest stake in the integrity of the network, no? supply and demand can clear at X and at 0.5X, so that doesn't answer the question for me.

Then you fail to understand the incentive structure. The only game-theory outcome to a PoS system is a monopoly. That's the reason why there aren't any successful ones. Because they require trust.

What about a hybrid PoS/PoW system? In reality, bitcoin as PoW is also near monopoly, more like oligopoly, still requiring trust.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#288

Post by Twisell »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #282
geezerjay wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is my opinion that the intrinsic value of bitcoin is far far greater than anyone really comprehends See? It's all speculative bullshit, where people who took a bet on bitcoin increasing price and expect to profit from this price increase are trolling other fools to keep pumping the bubble until they cash out. Bitcoin is quite clearly a pump-and-dump scheme, and here we see some users cheering fools to keep on pu…

I don't think you read past the first sentence.

And this was the intended effect of your post you wrote a long monologue instead of a clear answer. Thus proving his point, there is no clear answer.

Any truth-holder (on both side) is a blatant liar.

Re: Nasdaq Plans to Introduce Bitcoin Futures

#290

Post by csomar »

knownothing wrote: post #185
goodside wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you bought BTC and held it--at any high or low, for any significant amount of time--you made a lot of money (either realized or unrealized, that doesn't matter). This isn't entirely true. If you bought Bitcoin anywhere near the height of the late-2013 mania (which is of course a lot of people, since that's why the price was so high), you lost half your value within a month or two and then had to hold until 2…

Right. You would had to have bought and held until today for my claim to be true (and it is only true at the time I write this). But it's still the case that you could have bought in any peak or trough in the periods you're referring to and still have significant realized/unrealized gains right now .

The difficult part is holding through the bear period. I'm pretty sure not so many investors can do that.
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