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Ajit Pai is right

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Re: Ajit Pai is right

#281
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't want an ISP to decide how much to charge one service or the other, which ones should be blocked or not blocked, and which services to promote or not promote. They have a monopoly, and a conflict of interest when it comes to services they own (partly or whole). Plus, ISPs can and do charge similar to UPS/Fedex. If you want a higher level of service, faster speed, better hardware, etc. you can pay an IS…

See this is the problem with the pro NN side. It's littered with factual inaccuracies and outright lies. ISPs, in the US at least, have not agreed to not compete with each other and there's no regional monopolies. The majority of the country has 2 or more broadband providers plus a plethora of wireless and satellite options.

Oh! Here are some lies for you: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/05/28/cnbc-exclusive-cnbc-transcri...

> ROBERTS: FIRST OF ALL, BOTH IN VIDEO AND IN BROADBAND WE DON'T COMPETE WITH TIME WARNER. WE HAVE TO START WITH THAT VERY FUNDAMENTAL POINT. THEY'RE IN NY. WE'RE IN PHILADELPHIA. THEY'RE IN L.A., WE'RE IN SAN FRANCISCO. YOU CAN'T BUY A COMCAST IN NEW YORK, CAN'T BUY A TIME WARNER IN PHILADELPHIA. SO THERE'S NO REDUCTION IN COMPETITION.

Is that by chance? I wonder.

Here's a map of competition: https://consumerist.com/2014/03/07/heres-what-lack-of-broadb...

Here's the Department of Commerce's study on competition [PDF]: http://esa.doc.gov/sites/default/files/competition-among-us-...

> The typical person also has the option of choosing between three mobile broadband service providers at 10 Mbps. At even higher speeds, however, the number of providers drops off dramatically. For example, only 37 percent of the population had a choice of two or more providers at speeds of 25 Mbps or greater; only 9 percent had three or more choices. Moreover, four out of ten Americans did not live where very-high-speed broadband service – 100 Mbps or greater – is available. Of those with access to broadband at this speed level, only 8 percent had access to two or more providers; 1 percent had access to three or more. Only 3 percent of the population had 1 Gbps or greater available; none had two or more ISPs at that speed.

And no, satellite and wireless do not count as competition in broadband. Sorry. Wireless is expensive, comes with very small data caps (unless you're lucky enough to be grandfathered into old data plans), and there are NN exceptions in wireless (e.g. TMobile). Satellite comes with low bandwidth, higher latency, and higher costs.

Plus, according to the study, YOU'RE the one with inaccuracies. "For example, only 37 percent of the population had a choice of two or more providers at speeds of 25 Mbps or greater" 37% of the population is not a majority. If you have updated stats, please link them.

The ideal here is to have 3+ for 98% of the country, with options such as: municipal broadband, Comcast, Google Fiber, and Grande/Sonic/other regional options.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I readily acknowledge I'm attacking your metaphor and not your argument here, but I'm curious about your perspective because I don't understand it. You really think that if the government decided to stop regulating car safety tomorrow that car manufactures would STOP putting seatbelts and safety features in cars? You realize that seatbelts were invented by the industry right? You know all those cool new driver assist…

> Those are the sorts of things the FCC should be working to straiten out. I'm in full agreement with you. I don't think anybody wants these companies to maintain their regional monopolies. From my point of view, removing NN is like gifting the ISPs the chance to further reward themselves for maintaining their monopoly. Make a few extra bucks while the rest of us work very, very hard to try and get rid of their monop…

>removing NN is like gifting the ISPs the chance to further reward themselves for maintaining their monopoly

This is one of those things that seems to stick in the craw of some, as if when you "stick it to the man" you'll benefit some how. Notice how you used the word "force?" That is authoritarianism by definition. I think all technical people can agree that the goal is for our ISPs to behave in a way that conforms with the principles of net neutrality. Where we differ is how to reach that end. I am one that does not believe the end justifies the means, and that patience is a virtue.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#283
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Russia enforces its laws in any special way or what? No, there are just more laws to enforce. First make everything illegal, then put anyone you don't like behind bars. Don't give your government more tools to oppress you, is what would be my advice.

> Do you think Russia enforces its laws in any special way or what? Yes, very much so. > No, there are just more laws to enforce. First make everything illegal, then put anyone you don't like behind bars. Which already is telling you that it's not the rule of law. Selective enforcement is not a thing that should exist under the rule of law, and it exists to a much lesser extent in other countries. > Don't give your g…

Only the government has the power of 'legitimate violence' so they have to be considered in a different manner.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#284
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those issues are inherent to competition, not to the infrastructure. The ISPs shouldn't be deciding who gets to stay or go. Their infrastructure should be neutral, just as water pipes don't care if they're going to my house or to a giant industrial corporation that has a stronghold over the steel industry. I think my example is bad. I'll try a slightly better one: My water pipes don't care if they go to my ABC brand…

Why not? Why shouldn't the best usage of a limited resource be determined by who is willing to pay the most money? Does this extend to other industries? Should we force Fedex/UPS to ship at one speed only?

> force Fedex/UPS to ship at one speed only?

Certainly not.

But we should prevent them from charging 10x the rate for Netflix discs and giving free shipping to Blockbuster.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those are the sorts of things the FCC should be working to straiten out. I'm in full agreement with you. I don't think anybody wants these companies to maintain their regional monopolies. From my point of view, removing NN is like gifting the ISPs the chance to further reward themselves for maintaining their monopoly. Make a few extra bucks while the rest of us work very, very hard to try and get rid of their monop…

>removing NN is like gifting the ISPs the chance to further reward themselves for maintaining their monopoly This is one of those things that seems to stick in the craw of some, as if when you "stick it to the man" you'll benefit some how. Notice how you used the word "force?" That is authoritarianism by definition. I think all technical people can agree that the goal is for our ISPs to behave in a way that conforms…

Yes, the government forces companies to do things. How awful. Here are some of the many awful things the government forces companies to do:

- ADA

- Non-discrimination

- Antitrust

- Health regulations

How authoritarian! I'm glad that the spooky A-word is scaring you into letting ISPs continue their money-grubbing practices. I'm done with that business. I hope NN sticks around and their lobbying efforts go down the drain (AKA into politician's pockets apparently).

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#286
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the problem with the pro NN side. It's littered with factual inaccuracies and outright lies. ISPs, in the US at least, have not agreed to not compete with each other and there's no regional monopolies. The majority of the country has 2 or more broadband providers plus a plethora of wireless and satellite options.

Oh! Here are some lies for you: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/05/28/cnbc-exclusive-cnbc-transcri... > ROBERTS: FIRST OF ALL, BOTH IN VIDEO AND IN BROADBAND WE DON'T COMPETE WITH TIME WARNER. WE HAVE TO START WITH THAT VERY FUNDAMENTAL POINT. THEY'RE IN NY. WE'RE IN PHILADELPHIA. THEY'RE IN L.A., WE'RE IN SAN FRANCISCO. YOU CAN'T BUY A COMCAST IN NEW YORK, CAN'T BUY A TIME WARNER IN PHILADELPHIA. SO THERE'S NO REDUCTION I…

From your own cite:

>At download speeds of 3 megabits per second (Mbps), which is the Federal Communications Commission’s current approximate standard for basic broadband service, 98 percent of the population had a choice of at least two mobile ISPs and 88 percent had two or more fixed ISPs available to them.

And you're doubling down on nonsense. There's no regional agreements not to compete and your quote isn't any proof of it.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think Russia enforces its laws in any special way or what? Yes, very much so. > No, there are just more laws to enforce. First make everything illegal, then put anyone you don't like behind bars. Which already is telling you that it's not the rule of law. Selective enforcement is not a thing that should exist under the rule of law, and it exists to a much lesser extent in other countries. > Don't give your g…

Only the government has the power of 'legitimate violence' so they have to be considered in a different manner.

Really, "the power of legitimate violence" doesn't compute. If someone has the actual power to use violence against the population, what difference does it make whether it is somehow nominally illegitimate? Giving all the power to private corporations is not a solution to that problem, because then those corporations ultimately will also end up with the power to use violence. Your only hope is to keep power distributed.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#288
post #15

> It is worth noting, by the way, that BitTorrent users were free-loaders, using massively more bandwidth than the vast majority of Comcast’s customers. I don't think that's how a service agreement works. If I'm paying for a certain bandwidth and latency, I should get that (to within reasonably improbable outages) if I use it 100% of the time or 1% of the time. If the ISP can't keep up, they should be penalized for i…

It would be more like a buffet... "all you can eat" and when you eat a lot they shout that it is unfair...

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#289
post #274

Arg. I feel like articles like this are calling me stupid with some statements. Like this doozy: "T-Mobile treats all data the same, some data just doesn’t cost money" I guess I'm too stupid to understand what "same" means. Or: "Zero-rating [...] Customers loved it" That's not enough. The argument is about small providers conforming to T-Mobile. What customers think is irrelevant I'm afraid. Then the author goes on t…

"T-Mobile treats all data the same, some data just doesn’t cost money" I guess I'm too stupid to understand what "same" means. It made sense to me, but maybe I'm the one misunderstanding. Let's try a hypothetical parallel: PhoneCo sells you 1000 minutes of phone service, meaning that you can make 1000 minutes of calls without additional charge. But as a "perk" (to encourage you to convince your friends to switch Phon…

> But as a "perk"

And there's where you went off "same". It's abusing the term "same". I of course understand the author, but he is mincing words.

So yes, it is unreasonable to say that in response to "Does DataCo treat all data the same"...or at least you have realized that latter part ("some data just doesn't cost money") must always be present as a caveat. What it leads to, inevitably, is prioritizing the data on cost alone. Users are incentivized NOT to use the non-free side.

It's like someone saying "have you ever done THING" and the response being "I have never done THING, except for that one time". Just say it isn't the same then, otherwise it comes off as weaseling.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#290
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh! Here are some lies for you: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/05/28/cnbc-exclusive-cnbc-transcri... > ROBERTS: FIRST OF ALL, BOTH IN VIDEO AND IN BROADBAND WE DON'T COMPETE WITH TIME WARNER. WE HAVE TO START WITH THAT VERY FUNDAMENTAL POINT. THEY'RE IN NY. WE'RE IN PHILADELPHIA. THEY'RE IN L.A., WE'RE IN SAN FRANCISCO. YOU CAN'T BUY A COMCAST IN NEW YORK, CAN'T BUY A TIME WARNER IN PHILADELPHIA. SO THERE'S NO REDUCTION I…

From your own cite: >At download speeds of 3 megabits per second (Mbps), which is the Federal Communications Commission’s current approximate standard for basic broadband service, 98 percent of the population had a choice of at least two mobile ISPs and 88 percent had two or more fixed ISPs available to them. And you're doubling down on nonsense. There's no regional agreements not to compete and your quote isn't any…

> However, as multiple household members increasingly consume video streaming services music streaming, and online games, the adequate broadband speed bar has been raised. To understand just how slow 3 Mbps is, it takes about 2.25 hours to download a 6 gigabyte movie. The same movie would only take 16 minutes to download at 25 Mbps

The FCC later increased their definition: https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/29/7932653/fcc-changed-defin...

We both know 3 Mbps isn't enough these days, and it hasn't been enough for many years.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/09/comca...

The previous PDF I linked, from their FCC filing, discusses the reasons why they don't compete with each other.

Sorry, I'm still stuck at work.

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