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It’s time to kill the web app

blog.plan99.net

281–290 of 717 posts

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#281
The biggest advantage for a hobbist developer like me is that web development makes a single code base possible. One code base runs on phones, tablets, desktop, across OSs etc. It would be impossible for me to write and distribute solutions otherwise. Multiple programming languages, deployment overhead across app stores etc.

I miss the provision of notifications the most. With PWA I can cover Android, but I don't think anyone allows notifications from websites (I don't).

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#282
Call me when some other platform gets:

1) sub-100ms installs and upgrades

2) a secure sandbox in which to run untrustworthy code

3) distribution without gatekeepers

Until then every other platform is playing catch up.

And maybe in the meantime ask yourself why is the web so popular if it's so bad? Is it just complete stupidity, or is there maybe some form of natural selection happening and you're not understanding the fitness function?

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#283
post #276
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you present an average web user with the interface you can design (quickly and efficiently) in VB6, they'll spit in your face. Much of the complexity of web design is not in the tools; it's in the fact that users don't expect a standard whatsoever, they just expect their UIs to be as slick and customly designed as magazines. If every website was written using the same standard, predefined set o…

Most enterprise web apps use bootstrap, that is quite Standart. But they do it on top of react/angular/grunt/we pack and a zillion npm packages to choose and keep updated. Nothing of this was necessary to make VB6 applications.

This is true, the monstrosity I inherited at work is built on bootstrap (2...and it was started after 3 came out..) but modern tooling has radically improved.

yarn/typescript and (though some days I hate it..it has gotten better) webpack largely make it feel sane(r).

That said getting to a point where I was comfortable with all three was insanely more complex and time consuming that picking up Delphi 6 was in the early 2000's.

Shrugs, the beast is what it is until someone does something better.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#284
I was about to say, it's time to kill monolithic native apps that live behind DRM'ed App Stores, can't talk to one another effectively, can't be composed, must be explicitly managed by users lest they run out of storage, and have an enormous transactional cost to trying them out.

Or I could point out that explicitly designed application protocols with native clients over the years have also shown themselves vulnerable to attack (e.g. IMAP, SMTP, etc), or that most of the attacks on the Web have not been XSS/XSRF but server-side hacks. Or that Android's native app platform is full of malware and viruses that even Google hasn't been able to completely eliminate with deep scanning.

Is the price of security that we throw away the Web and HTTP and implement everything as silo'ed IOS style monolithic apps? It's a price too high to pay in my opinion.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#285
post #262
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used vb6 20 years ago and have recently (quite unfortunately) had to learn html/js/css basics. The web is hot garbage for displaying form data compared to microsoft tools circa 1996.

The problem is that if you present an average web user with the interface you can design (quickly and efficiently) in VB6, they'll spit in your face. Much of the complexity of web design is not in the tools; it's in the fact that users don't expect a standard whatsoever, they just expect their UIs to be as slick and customly designed as magazines. If every website was written using the same standard, predefined set o…

This is a really observant point.

Users expect every website to have a unique identity (unlike anything built with WinForms), that is what creates the complexity.

If you actually use something like bootstrap, your website will look unoriginal, but it will be dead easy to make.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we fix this?

We don't. Learn to embrace it instead. There's a flip side to everything. In this case, if you "fixed" this problem, it would imply a steady-state world where nothing ever changed, nothing was ever replaced, and nobody could ever take action to fix the things bugging them. To me, this is the ultimate in dystopias. It's like the world in The Giver or Tuck Everlasting , far more oppressive than the knowledge that every…

Is there no possibility of steady progress without having to continually discard good solutions and reinvent things (e.g. web development catching up with the 90s)? Someone on this thread said that our field has no institutional memory. Can we at least fix that?

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#287
I almost signed up for that site, only so I could respond to that article. Why kill the platform that can be accessed from devices available to everyone, everywhere. Cross platform support on applications is taxing, even with an engine like unity that offers multiplatform builds, if you want to get a product in the hands of the world, you build it on the web.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#288
Some of the assertions from the author about how things were in the past are pretty off. Office 2000 wasn't happy with 75 MHz and 32 MB ram at all. I would say the average computer at that time was at least 200MHz with 128MB of RAM.

In addition in 1995, developer "platforms" were rarely Windows-based. Borland was still hugely popular at that time, and DOS-based compilers were still big. The assertions he makes about the developer platforms are a complete joke: "Support for graphing of data, theming, 3D graphics" were completely not a thing, nor was "Sophisticated support for multi-language software components".

I'm pretty sure the author didn't develop back in 1995.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#289
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many really truly secure C programs have ever been released into the wild? Maybe qmail? But qmail did it by completely rewriting the C standard library.

Admittedly few, but generally in native land you have the ability to plaster over platform deficiencies with equally-well-performing code. On the web, you can never really compete with the execution speed or integration of the native code in the browser, so you have to accept whatever is there. I'd say OpenSSH (since SSH2) has a better track record than most webapps, as unfair a comparison as that is. In terms of loc…

I wouldn't consider seL4 to be a "C project". Yes, their github repository is mostly C, but the process of writing seL4 was extremely involved: write the kernel in Haskell, then write it again in C, then prove that the C is equivalent to the Haskell. seL4 is ~9000 lines of C, ~600 lines of asm, and ~200,000 lines of Isabelle (theorem prover).

I don't disagree with your use of OpenSSH as an example.

Re: It’s time to kill the web app

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SQL injection is not a web problem. If you create SQL queries based on any untrusted (e.g. user) input on any platform, you have to escape/explicitly type your input. Injection in general is simply a trust problem. If you can trust all inputs fully (hint: you can't, because nobody can), then you will never have an injection attack.

SQL injection is a problem with SQL, which is similar to problems with HTML. SQL was created as human-friendly query languages, it wasn't created to be built from strings in a programming language. Proper database API should be just a bunch of query builder calls and with this API SQL-injection is not possible.

Like LINQ
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