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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#281

Post by RugnirViking »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #189
oceanghost wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks on HN haven't worked on anything more complicated than a web app.

Although that comment is unconstructive and probably wrong, I'll just point out that pretty much all of Google is a "web app".

While I agree it seems the above comment was intended as a swing at HN which is not constructive or useful debate, I would suggest that as per the stack overflow developer survey web programmer was the most common job title by a very large margin (72.6%, with next closest being Desktop applications developer at 28.9%)

While I would suggest that this forum demographic likely differs somewhat from stack overflow as a whole, its certainly an interesting question.

Also as an anecdote, web technologies stories seem to appear disproportionately often on the front page. This would suggest at least some interest by the majority of HN

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#282

Post by dandelion_lover »

RealityVoid wrote: post #278
bigtimeidiot wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times Your hand-waving also does precisely zero. > If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car What does this have to do with anything? I want to work on something I bought; isn't that what we're arguing about? The availability of a replacement is a straw man. Why are you apologizing for other companie…

While I think you have a valid point about Tesla's availability, this is a "Tu Coque". I mean, regardless if Tesla does/does not do it, this is considered bad and bringing Tesla in the discussion does not change nor challenge the validity of this view, only, maybe, reveal a little hypocrisy or favoritism in the audience.

>While I think you have a valid point about Tesla's availability, this is a "Tu Coque". I mean, regardless if Tesla does/does not do it, this is considered bad

aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#283

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

DanBC wrote: post #267
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the software was open source, it would be modified and tuned to maximize power output, and would belch huge plumes of particulates, CO, and NOx. How do you balance openness against the public good of controlling this pollution? These are, perhaps, the primary reasons that engine control software is so complicated these days, on diesels and gas engines.

Since the software is closed source we don't know if it's cheating emissions testing or not.

Touche.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#284

Post by tobltobs »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #269
tobltobs wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times. If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car. Much luck to get a replacement for your tractor during harvest season.

> Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times Your hand-waving also does precisely zero. > If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car What does this have to do with anything? I want to work on something I bought; isn't that what we're arguing about? The availability of a replacement is a straw man. Why are you apologizing for other companie…

> I want to work on something I bought; isn't that what we're arguing about?

This might be what you are arguing about, but then you are in the wrong discussion. Farmers complain that they have to wait for an authorized JD mechanic to fix even the most simple stuff. And during harvest time they just can't wait.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#285

Post by justaman »

rando832 wrote: post #111
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

I'm out here in the soybean/corn/dairy fields of Wisconsin. I'm not originally from here but i'll tell ya, some of these farmers are brilliant! These rednecks have their trucks and their tools and are frequently more ingenuitive and resourceful than anyone anywhere else in the world. Most of these folks would outfit their tractor with bucket seats, two cup holders, falcon wing car doors, and a keggerator if it didnt come standard.

If Joe Farmer doesnt know, he will figure it out.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#286

Post by adrianN »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #265
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

If the software was open source, it would be modified and tuned to maximize power output, and would belch huge plumes of particulates, CO, and NOx. How do you balance openness against the public good of controlling this pollution? These are, perhaps, the primary reasons that engine control software is so complicated these days, on diesels and gas engines.

Make such modifications illegal and require regular checks.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#287

Post by criddell »

gerbilly wrote: post #268
jaclaz wrote: post #227

I have the feeling that somehow the actual need has been put aside for phylosophical (or Open Source, etc.) reasonings (nice but not the original issue). More or less what the good farmers are asking for (which is not about the code, the kernel or whatever, they are not "hackers" as much as the authorized JD technicians are not computer experts or programmers or software engineers) is just access to the "database" of…

>The farmers do not want the source code, they don't want to modify it, they don't want to "hack" anything, they simply want to be able to replace a part and have the thingy work. One way to fix this would be for a farmer to sue the manufacturer for business interruption for millions of dollars. When planting or harvesting, especially when bad weather is coming in, you are on a tight deadline. Inability to replace a…

I'm guessing JD has lawyers smart enough to protect the company against something like this. For one, I'm guessing the purchaser / licensee agreed to binding arbitration. As well, the purchaser / licensee probably also agreed to release JD from any responsibility for losses due to malfunction (where malfunction is defined by JD).

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#288

Post by criddell »

kodfodrasz wrote: post #184
plinkplonk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But trust me on this,... isn't a way to make a good argument. From TFA "Only dealerships have the software to make those parts work, and it costs hundreds of dollars just to get a service call. Schwarting worries about being broken down in a field, waiting for a dealer to show up with a software key." and from a comment above "Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to…

This may be related to farmers not taking the tractors to repair shops. The automotive component I worked on was firmware updated every time the customer took the car to a service for eg. to change oil, and an update was necessary. The tools needed for this were pretty expensive though, and needed some expertise, as the process was somewhat complicated. I understand why this is not trusted to owners.

> The tools needed for this were pretty expensive though, and needed some expertise, as the process was somewhat complicated.

There's a pretty good chance that was done intentionally.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#289

Post by criddell »

tw04 wrote: post #145
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

What, specifically, is a threat to kill people in the software? I'm sorry but that just reads like a John Deere shill here to defend the cause. We got by for literally two hundred years without magical software in tractors, and we were just fine.

These things drive themselves. There are foragers that follow other equipment autonomously.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#290

Post by criddell »

michaelt wrote: post #207
Nilzor wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what kind of repairs are that? As a software developer I don't understand what equipment is failure needs software change. Software don't wear and tear. Hardware does.

I don't know about tractors, but I do know some examples from cars that might be relevant. The security system on some cars talks to keys electronically, and relies on a chain of trust between components. Kinda makes sense - you don't want a thief to be able to reach under the car, plug into a cable and issue the unlock doors command. The practical upshot of this is replacement doors won't unlock the central locking,…

The airbag example is an excellent analogy.
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