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SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

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Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#281

Coin Center executive director Jerry Brito: > The Winklevoss ETF proposal was rejected because the SEC found that the significant markets for Bitcoin tend to be unregulated overseas markets that are potentially subject to price manipulation. But this creates a chicken and egg problem. How do we develop well-capitalized and regulated markets in the U.S. and Europe if financial innovators aren’t allowed to bring produc…

It's easy. If your product practical application was actually more important than it's speculation aspect then price manipulation would be greatly reduced. As bitcoin exists right now that's not the case of course. Bitcoin is now a mostly speculative asset since the amount of transactions you can do is extremely small compared to the market value of bitcoin at the moment.

This is somewhat false. It is true that Bitcoin can currently support about 7 txps. However, this isn't the whole picture.

1) A much better number to use is 4,500/10 minutes, because if the transactions aren't used in a prior second, they can still be used in the next.

2) One-way ratcheting timelocked channels (these payment channels work kind of like a giftcard) are ridiculously easy to implement -- basically just use this scriptPubKey: ``` OP_IF OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY OP_ELSE OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY OP_DROP OP_ENDIF OP_CHECKSIG ```(from https://21.co/learn/intro-to-micropayment-channels/) These only require two transactions total to send many transactions from Alice to Bob. Even as technologies like Lighting Network are further developed, which make these channels full duplex, institutions looking to get high volume trustless transactions through should have very little challenge adopting simpler channels now.

3) The number of transactions is completely separate from the amounts that can be transacted. Large value transactions move through bitcoin as easily as small, so even if the number of transactions were bottle-necked, this is still very useful for settling larger amounts with finality.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#282
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse than that. You are not allowed to re-melt your piece of gold if that item has a serial number on it. Basically most smiths run an official registry. Even though a gold bullion is yours, most countries will forbid you from melting it into something else and destroying serial number in process, just like even if you own your house you cannot set it on fire. There are penalties including jail time. Its irrele…

You would probably lose value by melting minted gold bullion anyway. It would effectively convert a standardised unit of value into black market gold.

No you won't lose value. You make up by selling more of a smaller portion as smaller gold is rarely sold on exact ticker value.

It is much easier and faster to sell 10 x 100g tabs than 1 x 1kg.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#283
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frame this and put it on your wall- https://i.imgur.com/tct42F0.png

Can you mark the exact moment the ruling was made public? Could this image contain evidence of trading w/ insider knowledge of the SEC ruling?

The drop started at the exact time SEC made the announcement through their web.

Interesting part was, it went from 1250 way up to 1350 hours before the announcement making people feel someone bought on insider information but turned out that was some FOMO buyer.

I was trading right then sticking to the monitor for 8 hours straight waiting for their announcement.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is a share of a conversion from electricity to waste heat.

Which ceases to exist entirely after a mega-solar-flare. Gold persists.

Unless it also disables the security systems on your gold storage or erases your GLD shares or we forget we'd all agreed gold is valuable.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#285

So what are the expected benefits of a bitcoin ETF? Many of the traditional benefits of ETFs are obsolete when you can just buy and hold an equivalent amount of bitcoin The biggest benefit I can think of is that some institutional investors have restrictions on the types of securities that they can buy. Someone could solve this by creating a company to buy lots of bitcoin, and then having an IPO to list that company…

So what are the expected benefits of a bitcoin ETF?

It was a way for the Winkelvii to do a big Bitcoin dump without crashing the price. That's all, really.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#286
post #59

Bitcoin just went from a high of 1327.1926 to 995.9575 in the blink of an eye. Wow. From the ruling.... > First, the exchange must have surveillance-sharing agreements with significant markets for trading the underlying commodity or derivatives on that commodity. And second, those markets must be regulated. > Based on the record before it, the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulat…

I put a 50x leveraged short contract trade 10 mins before that at BitMex, and just before it plummeted, it quickly went up to 1327 and I got wiped out. So I didn't get to make a huge return!

I'm starting to feel that weird pump was some manipulation to "settle" both sides not to make "winners" from both sides by SEC's decision...

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#288
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why you put the word currency in quotes. There have also been many state issued currencies that have done similar - see Thai Baht, Argentine Peso, Russian Ruble, Venezuelan Bolivar etc.

Volatility isn't the issue. Bitcoin isn't technically a currency because it can't currently be used directly to pay public debts or taxes in any nation state. Bitcoin is just another commodity like copper or crude oil.

You're describing fiat currency, a subset of currency. Historically, a nation state is not a prerequisite for currencies to exist.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#289
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volatility isn't the issue. Bitcoin isn't technically a currency because it can't currently be used directly to pay public debts or taxes in any nation state. Bitcoin is just another commodity like copper or crude oil.

You're describing fiat currency, a subset of currency. Historically, a nation state is not a prerequisite for currencies to exist.

Actually, GP is discussing legal tender, which is not the same thing as fiat currency. Commodity (both specie or representational) currencies have historically been legal tender, in addition to fiat money (which is the modern norm for legal tender.)

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#290
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would probably lose value by melting minted gold bullion anyway. It would effectively convert a standardised unit of value into black market gold.

No you won't lose value. You make up by selling more of a smaller portion as smaller gold is rarely sold on exact ticker value. It is much easier and faster to sell 10 x 100g tabs than 1 x 1kg.

But theres a cost in re-minting the gold into a bullion, which if its the way of consumption that takes more demand it would end up costing more.

Its obvious whatever that such rules can hardly be enforced.

Sidestory: Argentina had an issue with inflation making coins worth less than their metal, and the bus lines (which were coin operated) turned out to be hoarding coins for reselling.

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