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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#281

Post by jdmichal »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #247
jdmichal wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to note that agnosticism and theism are not opposing. Agnosticism simply declares that you view the existence and / or properties of one or more deities as unknowable [0]. That is not incompatible with theism. In fact, I argue that such is the definition of faith -- to believe despite not knowing. [0] Or, for weak agnosticism, currently unknown.

I find your lack of [a good definition of] faith disturbing. -- Darth Webster Seriously though, I think the "blind faith" usage of the term faith is its weakest form. "Trust" and "confidence" are good synonyms. Because as a rule, humans have faith in a great many things, and the vast majority of those faiths are not characterized by a lack of knowledge or evidence. Consider the following statements: - The astronauts…

I'm not sure if you think your making a point against my definition. Replace the word "believe" with "trust" and it could fit perfectly as one of your examples:

> In fact, I argue that such is the definition of faith -- to trust despite not knowing.

I don't think that's such a big difference. Believing in something is trusting it to exist and to have the properties that you think it does. If the astronauts were wrong about the laws of physics, it would have broken their trust and thus their faith.

Hell, just for funsies, to drive the point home:

> belief - Trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#282

Post by thinkloop »

komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

> amazing aquarium, go check it out

Is it OK to feel sad about the aquarium based on this story?

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#284

Post by skykooler »

logfromblammo wrote: post #144
pacaro wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedantic mode here: linguistically it should be octopodes (but nobody who isn't speaking Greek would say that); by usage it should be octopuses; octopi or octopii are just wrong (it's not a second declension noun, despite the 'us' ending)

Octopus has three acceptable pluralizations in English. Octopuses is correct by English rules. Octopodes is correct by strict etymological Greek-origin rules. Octopi is correct by English's pseudo-Latin cognate rules. The latter means that any singular noun ending in a consonant and "-us" can be pluralized by chopping off the "-us" and appending an "-i" or "-ii", like alumnus, hippopotamus, virus, bacillus, hummus, l…

In the parking lot near my house, there are a bunch of Toyota Priuses that park in one corner. We've started calling them Prii.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#285

Post by sho »

pacaro wrote: post #279
lisivka wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK (I'm not a native speaker), English language has short and long words. Short words are native, long words are foreign. It's because long words in other languages are composed: short root, and suffix(es) to make proper form. English language uses other rules, so remnants of foreign languages are not welcome, but foreign languages are associated with wisdom, so longer words are associated with wisdom and science…

It's always difficult to produce hard and fast rules with English. But there are often two words (or stems) for things, one from the Germanic roots and one from Latin (either via Norman French, or from later scientific etc. addition) which leads us to see with our visual system. The older Germanic words tend to be for more commonplace vocabulary, whereas the Latin tends to be for more formal or technical usage (YMMV)…

It's more than difficult - it's impossible. The number of exceptions to every supposed rule in English is ridiculous. There is no way to learn the language except by absorption and rote.

That's sort of why I support octopi. It is predictable, idiomatic and consistent. You shouldn't have to research the origins of a word in order to pluralise it.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#286

Post by Kexoth »

actsasbuffoon wrote: post #145
pacaro wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her book "Animals make is human" - Temple Grandin makes the argument (among many others, this is not the main thesis of the book) that we can have a symbiotic relationship with animals, wherein we provide secure food supply, protection from predation and the associated stress, etc. and in return we eat the animal. Factory farming, by contrast has more in common with a parasitic relationship.

To play devil's advocate, would you accept the same trade? We've provided you with medicine, police protection, and subsidized food and shelter. Does that give me the right to presume that I should be able to eat you?

It might be a bit off-topic, but this is the idea behind one of the most popular episodes of the Twilight Zone.[0]

[0] - https://youtu.be/6g7vz6c2fog

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#287

Post by burkaman »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #249
rybosome wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well articulated. The entirety of my atheist morality is centered around the recognition that other humans are as acutely conscious as I am, and inflicting suffering on them (or allowing them to suffer through negligence or inaction) is cruel and distasteful. This is a fancy version of "treat others as you want to be treated", and is rooted in basic human empathy which stretches back millions of years - there is evid…

This worldview is fine, so long as you keep it to yourself. The trouble with this worldview comes when someone who holds it thinks anyone other than themselves ought to behave this way. Once you say people should treat others a certain way, you've crossed the line into moral absolutism. You think other people should live by some standard which you find better than the one they live by. Why should they? In the morally…

This does not make sense to me. Skimming Wikipedia, it sounds like you're describing "normative moral relativism": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

I think when most people say "moral relativism", they're talking about the descriptive or meta-ethical definitions. Even though I don't believe there is any objective universal truth that says murder is wrong, I still have based my moral system on the idea that society will not function if murder is allowed, so I and my society should remove anyone who violates this standard from our society. That is ideally what jail is for.

Your definition seems to push this to the absurd, and almost circle back on itself. Who are you to say that I shouldn't force others to live by my standard? Isn't that just your personal position, that you should keep to yourself?

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#288

Post by vacri »

sho wrote: post #261
logfromblammo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopus has three acceptable pluralizations in English. Octopuses is correct by English rules. Octopodes is correct by strict etymological Greek-origin rules. Octopi is correct by English's pseudo-Latin cognate rules. The latter means that any singular noun ending in a consonant and "-us" can be pluralized by chopping off the "-us" and appending an "-i" or "-ii", like alumnus, hippopotamus, virus, bacillus, hummus, l…

Honestly, as a native english speaker who is usually a nazi in spelling, grammar and pronunciation - octopi sounds most intuitively "correct" to me. Octopuses sounds awkward and inconsistent with idiomatic English, like a non-native speaker might guess at. Octopodes sounds like a scientific term. As far as I'm concerned octopi is correct. Screw the etymology.

Octopie is a baked dish with eight lobes.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#289

Post by vacri »

kabdib wrote: post #276
tzs wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately for us, they have two biological strikes against developing that kind of culture. 1. They have short lifespans, limiting how much knowledge and wisdom an individual can acquire over its lifetime. 2. Reproduction is fatal. Males dies a few months after mating. Females spend all their time after the eggs are laid guarding them, and neglect to eat. They die of starvation around the time the eggs hatch. The o…

It's hard to light a fire under the water. You're not going to do much industry there. The deck is stacked against water-based intelligence developing technology. Might be a good thing for us. I bet they could evolve into awesome tool users.

This being said, they have the 'third hand' that every technician dreams of. Two hands to hold the work steady, and the third to do the action.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#290

Post by [deleted] »

pacaro wrote: post #72
komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

Pedantic mode here: linguistically it should be octopodes (but nobody who isn't speaking Greek would say that); by usage it should be octopuses; octopi or octopii are just wrong (it's not a second declension noun, despite the 'us' ending)

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