I think that this overall push towards eliminating anonimity and trolls from the internet can only have negative outcomes. Sure, nobody will ever be offended again, but at what cost? And who are these easily offended people for whom we're sacrificing freedom of speech? It baffles me how nobody sees a parallel with 1984, here, and it's not the usual cliche claim. From: >do not say anything against someone To: >do not…
Nobody's claiming that nobody will ever be offended again (straw man); the idea / theory is that by using real name, there'd be less anonymous trolling. Offense might become even worse when it's not done anonymously though. Then it becomes a real person kicking a target's shins. Can be good (the argument improving, becoming more of a critique than just brainless insulting), can be bad (the offender not giving a fuck)…
The Real Name Fallacy
281–290 of 323 posts
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Expanding on the entry for those who have an unpopular political opinion - Take for example the current narrative that anyone who voted for Trump is a bigoted sexist homophobe. I don't think I could go so far as to label someone a "bigoted sexist homophobe" simply because they voted for someone who I didn't agree with or vote for, but that isn't really the case with Trump. This was a man who we have documented vide…
Fair enough, the man says some things that make polite society cringe, and its fair to at least ask the question of what motivates his supporters. But that wasn't the entirety of his message: His position on illegal immigration, while couched often in racist terms, resonates with people who actually see a lot of jobs they or their families used to get paid for going to much-lower paid immigrants. His tough talk on Ch…
Trump as a politicization reminds me of one of the Foundation series books that Azimov wrote. A politician of sorts visited the foundation, and after someone there actually took the time to look at everything he'd said they realized that effectively only puffery and no actual promises had been made.
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#283The problem isn't just discrimination/harassment (though that's huge - I used to use a male pseudonym on my github & stackoverflow accounts, and still do on medium.) It's also just pragmatically impossible. I have changed my first name legally three times. I have changed my last name once. I currently have different legal names in three countries, on my undergraduate & masters degrees, and on my 401k, and none of tho…
At least, as far as the one most easy to use against you.
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
Facebook doesn't need you to give your name to figure out who you are. They don't sell advertising based on your name. Also, I think it's unfair to pretend that real names don't make a difference. They're a big part of what makes Facebook different than MySpace, Twitter, or other social networks.
> Facebook doesn't need you to give your name to figure out who you are. They don't sell advertising based on your name. Well, they do need your name to link and correlate it with other data sources (like address books uploaded by people, offline data sources like data brokers, etc.) and use that to show "better ads" and make more money. The value lies in identifying related information with attributes like name, age…
> Nobody is pretending.
Just because some people are willing to still troll under their real names does not mean it doesn't have a substantive impact on people's behavior.
Heck, I personally have seen the difference in my own activity on Reddit (where I'm anonymous) and HN (where I'm not). I definitely hold myself to a higher standard here, even when arguments get heated, because this is part of my professional profile (and Reddit is not).
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
By a frequentist analysis, which omits complicating factors and may lead to inaccurate conclusions. One obvious thing that a frequentist analysis misses is that the larger the population, the bigger the size of the gang you can summon to harass someone. Getting trolled by 3 or 4 people on Usenet was annoying, but today someone can find their Twitter feed flooded by hundreds of people. The frequency of the harassing a…
What you're saying is right (in general, but not in reference to the specific analogy), but I'm not sure what it has to do with a frequentist analysis. Rather, it's a simplistic linear analysis of a higher-order system. Instead of multiplying the number of murders (which is an output, not an input), just multiply the number of potential murderers , with some percentage chance of being triggered to desire to murder a…
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
> encourage better discourse rather than calling out fallacies? How is calling out fallacies not the best kind of discourse??
I agree with you that identifying weaknesses or fallacies in an argument is a good thing. What I am trying to express is that it can sometimes be reduced to little more than name calling if not done well. Say, for example, I identify what I believe to be a straw man. If my response is only "That's a straw man", while it may be accurate, it's not very useful to the discourse. It should include at least why I believe t…
https://web.archive.org/web/20140404202911/http://plover.net...
This adds a little more nuance:
1) LOGICAL FALLACIES ARE USUALLY IRRELEVANT OR CITED INCORRECTLY...
2) CITING LOGICAL FALLACIES IS USUALLY COWARDLY AND LAZY ... " Rather than engage with the ideas in a text, it's much easier to skim through it trying to spot a quick fallacy; and once a fallacy is found, a baloney detector can safely ignore everything else. "
I wouldn't say this at all demonstrates the weakness in identifying fallacies. Falsely identifying fallacies is not identifying fallacies (the fallacy fallacy?); and nothing says that one fallacy invalidates an entire text; also, I find there argument there weak, e.g "these people seem to have no other opinions on the text" - so what?
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with you that identifying weaknesses or fallacies in an argument is a good thing. What I am trying to express is that it can sometimes be reduced to little more than name calling if not done well. Say, for example, I identify what I believe to be a straw man. If my response is only "That's a straw man", while it may be accurate, it's not very useful to the discourse. It should include at least why I believe t…
The context in that first link is: https://web.archive.org/web/20140404202911/http://plover.net... This adds a little more nuance: 1) LOGICAL FALLACIES ARE USUALLY IRRELEVANT OR CITED INCORRECTLY... 2) CITING LOGICAL FALLACIES IS USUALLY COWARDLY AND LAZY ... " Rather than engage with the ideas in a text, it's much easier to skim through it trying to spot a quick fallacy; and once a fallacy is found, a baloney detect…
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
That whole "don't go to that section if you don't like it" works just fine if those things stay in their section. The problem is that they weren't staying in their section. Fat People Hate was known for going into other subreddits and shitposting all the time. The Donald famously abused the rules to get their crap spamming /r/all constantly. So tell me again how "don't go to those subreddits" is the solution?
>>So tell me again how "don't go to those subreddits" is the solution? OK, Dont go to those subreddits. >Fat People Hate was known for going into other subreddits and shitposting all the time. I was no aware that subreddit's could post anything. Now users that happened to subscribed or vist FPH may also visit other communities, it is up to those communities to then moderator their subreddits, As to /r/all, reddit sho…
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Expanding on the entry for those who have an unpopular political opinion - Take for example the current narrative that anyone who voted for Trump is a bigoted sexist homophobe. I don't think I could go so far as to label someone a "bigoted sexist homophobe" simply because they voted for someone who I didn't agree with or vote for, but that isn't really the case with Trump. This was a man who we have documented vide…
Fair enough, the man says some things that make polite society cringe, and its fair to at least ask the question of what motivates his supporters. But that wasn't the entirety of his message: His position on illegal immigration, while couched often in racist terms, resonates with people who actually see a lot of jobs they or their families used to get paid for going to much-lower paid immigrants. His tough talk on Ch…
> Fair enough, the man says some things that make polite society cringe
His words reflect thoughts that should cause any human being with a shred of humanity to recoil in horror, not merely cause "polite society" to cringe; as a society, we should be over all of this by now - it is disheartening to find that for a large segment of our American society, that we haven't progressed much beyond the 1950s when it comes to certain social issues.
> His position on illegal immigration, while couched often in racist terms
Again with the above. While he might not have gotten my vote had he spoke otherwise, there was absolutely no reason, as a politician and businessman seeking to obtain the highest office in the land, that he had to speak about these issues in terms which were bigoted, racist, sexist and derogatory to people both within and outside of our borders. He could have - and should have - easily explained them in a professional, rational, and clear-headed manner which we could all find commendable, even if we didn't actually support the proposals.
Instead, he chose to speak differently, in a style of language which perhaps pandered to his supporters. Those supporters should have supported him regardless of how he spoke, professionally or otherwise. That he felt that he had to speak in a more base manner in order to gain their support says much about him and his supporters.
> But he's at least talking about things that are important to a very large part of the population, which is largely invisible to those of us in media-savvy urban settings. And those things are important enough to people that they are willing to look past some of the vile things he's said and done.
Those people aren't ignorant - they as much as anybody should be able to see that historically, supporting a person for highest office who says and does "vile things" rarely reflects well upon them. Indeed, sometimes such a person causes great strife or worse, both among his supporters and his detractors - which could easily be predicted had they cared to look and understand. I guess we'll see how things work this time around. I hope I am wrong. I fear otherwise.
> Hillary Clinton was the definition of establishment status quo; the Clinton Foundation's dealings with foreign governments created at the very least the appearance of impropriety; and while her husband's foibles are not her own, Bill Clinton's past behavior can be seen in a modern context as sexual assault, and the fact that she remained with him was a matter of genuine concern even to some feminists.
While perhaps of concern for a potential presidential candidate, all of it pales in comparison to what we know of our current President-elect. Hillary's decision to stay within the bonds of marriage and support her husband, while perhaps being something that would concern feminists, should have been seen as commendable by the conservative/evangelical right - yet it wasn't. Regardless, all of it was and is very minor to what we know of Trump's past and present.
It is my opinion that when given the choice of the "lesser of two evils" - the choice was to elect the greater of the two. We'll see how well that plays out, I guess.
> Trump can legitimately say he has enough money that no-one can bribe him to do something he doesn't already want to do, and while there were allegations of assault, they do not seem to have been very convincing, as the conversation around them quieted down fairly quickly.
Conversation on such allegations can indeed quiet down fairly quickly when one has enough money; maybe nobody can bribe him, but the inverse also applies - especially in this case. Of course, this is merely idle speculation and opinion on my part - I nor anyone else has any proof.
Re: The Real Name Fallacy
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
The context in that first link is: https://web.archive.org/web/20140404202911/http://plover.net... This adds a little more nuance: 1) LOGICAL FALLACIES ARE USUALLY IRRELEVANT OR CITED INCORRECTLY... 2) CITING LOGICAL FALLACIES IS USUALLY COWARDLY AND LAZY ... " Rather than engage with the ideas in a text, it's much easier to skim through it trying to spot a quick fallacy; and once a fallacy is found, a baloney detect…
Also, I just read the section about the sexist skeptic. I find it deeply flawed, many of the arguments are sound, and just because the author thinks they are inappropriate doesn't mean they are - that's just the authors subjective, emotive opinion.
Are you perhaps responding to something (much further) upthread, such as here?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13316770
If so, please respond there.