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AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AMDGPU patch

lists.freedesktop.org

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Re: AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AMDGPU patch

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Exactly this. The treatment AMD got from LKML was slightly deserved but doing that they alienated a hardware partner and indirectly set the precedent for doing closed source binary releases that use HAL anyway. It sucks for the consumers and that's what drives the installed base of Linux.

> slightly deserved ATi was legendary for their terrible drivers. The fglrx drivers took literally 5 years to not suck on first-generation radeon cards. By "not suck", I mean that the system would not have kernel panics at least once a day due to them. While they were piling on support for newer drivers in their proprietary stack, they were leaving triaged bugs open for years. When AMD bought them out, they didn't fi…

You make some really valid points. I'm sorry I overlooked the part about past drivers because I haven't had the misfortune of experiencing them (from what you say I feel lucky for that).

I don't have an AMD card handy but could you tell me more about the open radeon drivers? And if we do have those, why did this discussion start in the first place?

Are you talking about the Intel firmware or the OpenGL mesa drivers? I would say it has improved but the one pain of tearing videos and panning windows makes me really sad.

Re: AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AMDGPU patch

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slightly deserved ATi was legendary for their terrible drivers. The fglrx drivers took literally 5 years to not suck on first-generation radeon cards. By "not suck", I mean that the system would not have kernel panics at least once a day due to them. While they were piling on support for newer drivers in their proprietary stack, they were leaving triaged bugs open for years. When AMD bought them out, they didn't fi…

You make some really valid points. I'm sorry I overlooked the part about past drivers because I haven't had the misfortune of experiencing them (from what you say I feel lucky for that). I don't have an AMD card handy but could you tell me more about the open radeon drivers? And if we do have those, why did this discussion start in the first place? Are you talking about the Intel firmware or the OpenGL mesa drivers?…

The open radeon drivers were developed outside of ATi, using the (limited/sparse) documentation they were provided under extraordinarily strict NDA. As a result, we didn't have things like Z Buffering in the drivers until this year. But despite that, the drivers were in a much better shape.

This discussion (which if you read the dri-devel thread, ended with the ATi guys saying "we're sorry. we'll do better") is happening because AMD's marketing department dictates that they keep as much of the driver closed and developed in-house as possible. They're completely opening the kernel driver, but every layer above that is planned to be closed. There will be a free Mesa/Xorg/Wayland stack developed by volunteers in parallel with the proprietary drivers, for those that actually want to use their computer and not experience kernel panics (at a performance cost, due to not having full documentation of the card). Oh yeah, the proprietary drivers haven't even begun support for Wayland yet, and probably won't for another year or two.

This is a step up from before, mind you; AMD's previous setup under fglrx was a closed-source kernel driver with binary blobs, which would usually require a recompile every time you upgraded your kernel. In addition, because their software team was insane, they would take a snapshot once a year of the mainline kernel/X11, and build against that instead of merging to the latest tree. This means that all distros would have to pin their kernel/Xorg packages to a specific version (again, a year out of date), otherwise you just plain wouldn't have accellerated video. Arch (and other rolling distros) got so fed up with it that they stopped building fglrx in their repository, forcing people to use the open radeon/si/hd drivers. You had to do a rather immense amount of voodoo (add third-party repository, pin xorg/kernel to ancient versions included only in that repository, downgrade packages) just to get them working. If there's an exploit in the kernel or xorg, tough. If you want to have system uptime measured in days/weeks/months, tough. If you want Xinerama (good multi-monitor that plays nice with xrandr) support, tough.

In comparison, this new situation is a lot better. AMD is at least playing nice with the kernel developers, and the development team has fought enough with the marketing department to embrace a semi-open development model, which is where this dri-devel discussion comes in. We also got a pretty good inside view of way that AMD develops drivers/hardware, and some amusing commentary by the dri-devel maintainers (including Intel employees) about how screwed-up AMD's internal culture is to produce these sorts of problems. For instance, their software team cannot communicate with the hardware team, because by the time the drivers are started, the hardware team has moved on to another card, and all the knowledge is pretty much lost/changed/irrelevant. This bears repeating: the hardware and drivers are developed separately and at different times.

The end result of the thread is that they're going to split this 100,000 lines of hardware abstraction into much smaller chunks and merge it piece by piece. Hopefully this means that AMDGPU will be worth using in Kernel 4.10 or 4.11, depending on how long it takes.

I'm still using intel's mesa/kernel drivers in my chromebook. Yes, tearing/panning is gross, but if I had to pick between Intel and AMD's code on my machine, it's a no-contest.

Re: AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AMDGPU patch

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make some really valid points. I'm sorry I overlooked the part about past drivers because I haven't had the misfortune of experiencing them (from what you say I feel lucky for that). I don't have an AMD card handy but could you tell me more about the open radeon drivers? And if we do have those, why did this discussion start in the first place? Are you talking about the Intel firmware or the OpenGL mesa drivers?…

The open radeon drivers were developed outside of ATi, using the (limited/sparse) documentation they were provided under extraordinarily strict NDA. As a result, we didn't have things like Z Buffering in the drivers until this year. But despite that, the drivers were in a much better shape. This discussion (which if you read the dri-devel thread, ended with the ATi guys saying "we're sorry. we'll do better") is happe…

Thanks for taking the time out for such a super detailed reply.

Re: AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AMDGPU patch

#284
post #236
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upstream Allwinner support is a community effort, and it takes so long to convince the kernel developers to merge code that parts are generally years obsolete by the time they're fully supported. I think the upstream support may almost be at the point that C.H.I.P could use it - but they're using a single-core SoC from early 2012. I've seen patches for basic functionality like clock controllers (without which nothing…

True, but what has been accomplished with the Linux Sunxi community is a shortening of that loop to bring up new boards with modern kernels, the Pine A64 for example took only a year to gain support[1], and that was around the time they actually started shipping in quantity. Additionally, many of the ethernet drivers, HDMI PHY drivers, Cedrus (provides H.264 & H.265 decoding @ 10bit) are reusable on new chips like th…

The A64 was one of the chips whose clock controller support got stuck in mailing list hell for over a year. Currently that's planned for 4.10, basic stuff like Ethernet, USB and SD card support is still pending though: http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort I imagine they must be using a ton of patches on top of mainline to make that work.
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