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Kaspersky OS

eugene.kaspersky.com

281–290 of 290 posts

Re: Kaspersky OS

#281
post #24

No word on if this is FLOSS or not in the article so I'm assuming it'll be something closed. Which essentially renders the entire exercise moot form my POV. I also don't like how they mentioned Linux. They make it sound as if (a) Linux is very insecure...I'm no expert but I'd like to see them prove their system is more secure than a Linux distro dedicated to security. (b) Linux is the only viable option. There's plen…

An OS without FOSS targeted at routers is a total meme.

the security problems with linux I wouldn't want to dismiss though. I evangelize FOSS since the mid 90ies and we had a good laugh for 20 years whenever Windows messed up (remember trustworthycomputing.com ??). It is hard to dismiss that being accused for 25+ years for insecurity has nothing but boosted their situation. Whatever the perceived quality of Linux, security is currently not it's strongest feat.

Systems should become more resilient under pressure over time. But in the case of Linux the problem was lack of external pressure and increasing arrogance and dismissing many of it's shortcomings. People still are way too touchy whenever somebody picks on Linux. The 0day window of vulnerability is a pretty good indicator over how it compares. Thegrugq's comparison of OS security (slightly NSFW) https://grugq.github.io/presentations/COMSEC%20beyond%20encr...

Re: Kaspersky OS

#282
post #24

No word on if this is FLOSS or not in the article so I'm assuming it'll be something closed. Which essentially renders the entire exercise moot form my POV. I also don't like how they mentioned Linux. They make it sound as if (a) Linux is very insecure...I'm no expert but I'd like to see them prove their system is more secure than a Linux distro dedicated to security. (b) Linux is the only viable option. There's plen…

An OS without FOSS targeted at routers is a total meme. the security problems with linux I wouldn't want to dismiss though. I evangelize FOSS since the mid 90ies and we had a good laugh for 20 years whenever Windows messed up (remember trustworthycomputing.com ??). It is hard to dismiss that being accused for 25+ years for insecurity has nothing but boosted their situation. Whatever the perceived quality of Linux, se…

What happened to Pond? The domain is gone: https://pond.imperialviolet.org/

Re: Kaspersky OS

#283

A lot of OpenBSD mentions here, but what about MINIX 3? It's so underrated and ignored :( They made a nice microkernel-based UNIX-like system with a NetBSD userspace. Also, Redox is switching to a microkernel architecture...

re MINIX 3. It's not made for high-security. It's about high-reliability. Safety is usually a precursor to security but security can take a lot more. The core has to be designed for it like Genode is doing. re Redox. It's a nice project I've praised before. It's an alpha work-in-progress, changing rapidly, and unclear how much of its design is truly for security. A trimmed OpenBSD is probably a safer bet than it so f…

For the uninformed, what problems would Rust's features and microkernel not protect against?

Re: Kaspersky OS

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re MINIX 3. It's not made for high-security. It's about high-reliability. Safety is usually a precursor to security but security can take a lot more. The core has to be designed for it like Genode is doing. re Redox. It's a nice project I've praised before. It's an alpha work-in-progress, changing rapidly, and unclear how much of its design is truly for security. A trimmed OpenBSD is probably a safer bet than it so f…

For the uninformed, what problems would Rust's features and microkernel not protect against?

I can't even remember for Rust. I just know Rust team here admitted there was a cut-off point in terms of safety features it provides like any other language. For microkernels, all they do is memory isolation plus limit kernel-mode damage. Past that, you have to design extra capabilities into the microkernel, trusted code, or apps. You can even have concurrency errors in your apps with those if there's a shared-memory space allowed.

Re: Kaspersky OS

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm for different threat profiles with different schemes targeting them. We already have regular, security researchers and black hats hitting manipulation of flash, RAM cells, sound/speakers, and I/O firmware. It has to be in the threat model at least on the software side. Unfortunately, esp given the speeds of these things, mitigation probably demands new hardware either in general (eg custom RAM) or for detection (…

The thing that really scares me , as a fortunately ex-security guy, is the fact that everywhere I've worked for the last 10 years people are super casual about keyboards and mobiles. Mobile phones are an amazing platform to do... well, almost anything. There are some areas where their possession is restricted, though I suspect a motivated party could sneak a stripped down mobile device into nearly anywhere. Keyboards…

"Considering how much tech is in a keyboard, and how much volume it has, you could place nearly anything in there and possibly go ages without catching on."

You're thinking on the right lines. I've thought of weaponizing them, too. Main reason most don't is someone might look inside one. Even if it's not the target, finding something obvious could make the news with result that attack no longer works. That's why NSA weaponizes the USB connectors themselves. I do think there's room for doing what NSA is doing in a mobile-style SoC that replaces main MCU of the keyboard with same labeling. People would be none the wiser unless carefully measuring electrical properties.

" and I think part of why I still use the same keyboard I've had since 1997 ;)"

Haha. I keep updating but I stopped trusting the computers a while back. Far as subversion, most PC-level subversions seem to have started close to 2000 with NSA's programs kicking in around 2004. So, I recommend people use pre-2004 or pre-2000 tech. Plenty of usable stuff in that category.

Re: Kaspersky OS

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it shares APIs with Win32, but Windows CE runs almost half of every ATM I've ever used.

Also cash machines.

ATM (Automatic Telling Machine) is American English for a cash machine. A teller is a bank worker who handles cash.

Re: Kaspersky OS

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also cash machines.

ATM (Automatic Telling Machine) is American English for a cash machine. A teller is a bank worker who handles cash.

It's UK English too. But not as common as cash machine/cash point/hole in the wall.

Re: Kaspersky OS

#288
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those get fixed. This has been done, but poorly and only for an extremely select few things. KASLR is just one example of a poorly implemented feature that pales in comparison to alternatives (completely subsumed by features in the grsec implementation, for example, since it only randomizes things like .text addresses. Maybe some of that got fixed.) Features like kptr_restrict can easily be subverted by a number of…

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/59020/why-are-the-gr...

That's a nice link. It also has absolutely zero to do with any of the specific defenses that I mentioned, and the fact that upstream Linux doesn't have them -- again, my point is there are tons of things upstream can still do to harden the kernel, before getting to breaking userspace, despite your initial claim to the contrary. The point isn't "you must adopt the grsecurity patches" or the politics around why grsec won't help upstream. The point is that these meaningful improvements actually exist, and they are not available. It's simply factual Linux is way behind what's possible.

Furthermore, I really don't see how that link is relevant, given most of the more recent security features that went upstream, as well as many of the ones that will come in the future -- all originate in part from grsecurity anyway. Apparently, your position is that the kernel developers have already done all they can, and any further improvements else will break userspace, so systemd is definitely totes the #1 biggest problem now, everybody (non sequitur, but whatever). But when I bring up the defenses they could implement, but haven't yet, from the same source of the previous ones -- apparently I'm just doing some irrelevant posturing, or something? I find that funny. Maybe in 5 years when they've poorly ripped off more features and are still behind, you'll be moving the goalpost and saying "Any further improvements would break userspace", and it still won't be true in the slightest. :)

PAX_REFCOUNT is a non-breaking addition that would have stopped CVE-2016-0728 completely, for example, had it actually existed upstream -- it will soon enough, at least, as someone is working on it by porting the grsecurity patches.

The reality is very simple, even if you don't like it: upstream Linux is just bad at meaningful exploit mitigation, in many ways, and they have trailed behind what's possible for literally years. I'd also argue that some kernel developers seem to just have a complete, fundamental misunderstanding of what the point of the mitigations are, which is damning. One guy on the dev list argued with Kees Cook that people shouldn't bother with this shit, because we don't need to help "those bastards with proprietary modules be more secure" (Kees works on Android, so proprietary modules are just a fact of life, grsec improving their security simply being tangential), or help the people with out of tree kernels like the grsecurity team. It had apparently never dawned on him that mitigation tech could stop exploits that appear in the future. Like PAX_REFCOUNT stopping an exploit that would only appear in the future as time went on. This is mind-blowing as a position, for a developer of what is ostensibly one of the most complex projects in the world.

Anyone who has followed the grsecurity project for a while is pretty well aware of why they don't bother with upstream, and aware that upstream mostly reinvents their work, poorly. In any case, the given link is still irrelevant.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't actually know much about modern memory corruption defense, or the landscape of modern kernel security and how it has moved forward over time, if this non-reply is your only answer to the examples I listed...

Re: Kaspersky OS

#289
post #86

Given that there's not only software bugs, but the hardware ones, I wonder how secure it would be. I personally hate their software, but still, it would be nice to know. P.S. Security without open-sourcing is impossible. Although, dunno how for other countries, but here in Russia some people have a different point of view. Some people believe that “opensource is insecure by design, because everyone can see the code”.…

> Security without open-sourcing is impossible is just as documented an assertion as > opensource is insecure by design The two are completely orthogonal.

Those were two different opinions. First is mine, the second is my interviewer's.

Re: Kaspersky OS

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's spying powers are only much more capable, and its information war powers equally so, which is why you defend it.

No, I defend it because one is a liberal democracy that has civil rights and has promoted liberty and democracy throughout the world (despite many flaws). The other is Russia.

>promoted liberty and democracy throughout the world

You sure about that?

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/US/Efforts_to_Suppress_Democracy...

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