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“I have toyota corola”

daniel.haxx.se

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Re: “I have toyota corola”

#281

Post by gkya »

ldfdr wrote: post #164
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knuth is such a class act. I don't think I've ever heard a negative story about him. Contrast him to, say, the harsh laguage Linus Torvalds routinely engages in or the many stories pointing out Steve Jobs' unfriendly side. I'm not 100% sure if you have to be a jerk to get ahead in life and lean towards 'yes' on this but when I see guys like Knuth, I wonder if nice guys do win sometimes. >TXT2COM As an 80s BBS kid, I…

You're confusing being a jerk with communication styles and cultural differences. You'd never hire anyone from the American inner city, from parts of Scotland and Ireland, parts of New York, and similar. Some very nice people talk loudly, swear, and use politically incorrect language. This is part of the reason some URMs can't get ahead in US corporate culture. Yes, Linus does swear a lot, and uses aggressive languag…

Stop talking nonsense. The first version of Linux came around 1991-1992, with a plethora of GNU programs to be used on it. The oldests of the current open-source BSDs were released 1993. That's why Linux got any success at all.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#282

Post by cpkpad »

ivraatiems wrote: post #228
sssilver wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Armenian living in Texas and his communication is completely acceptable to me. If anything the standard American corporate professional speak pisses me off when matters get serious. Why don't we embrace that different things work for different people and there is no communication standard to be imposed per continent or even culture?

I think you're conflating corporatespeak/not being direct with being rude. Compare these three statements: "There's a problem with the function you wrote. I need you to fix it tonight." "The function you wrote is non-optimal for our goals. Please reconsider and reevaluate when you get a chance." "You fucked up that function. Fix up your shit NOW." The first is "standard professionalspeak." It's clear, direct, gets th…

There is a scale of insincerity to rudeness. I've been in cultures where each of those is considered respectful and reasonable.

The onus is very much on corporate America to accept diversity. Right now, the only persons of color who are hired are ones who have mastered the culture, for example. That doesn't have much to do with technical skills. That's almost the definition of discrimination.

Respect has to do with how you feel towards a person. People can read through the language used, and as unprofessional as "Fix up your shit NOW" may sound, the details of body language, tone of voice, and facial expression can make that disdainful, angry, respectful, or any of many other things, depending on how you read it.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#283

Post by cpkpad »

ivraatiems wrote: post #228
sssilver wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Armenian living in Texas and his communication is completely acceptable to me. If anything the standard American corporate professional speak pisses me off when matters get serious. Why don't we embrace that different things work for different people and there is no communication standard to be imposed per continent or even culture?

I think you're conflating corporatespeak/not being direct with being rude. Compare these three statements: "There's a problem with the function you wrote. I need you to fix it tonight." "The function you wrote is non-optimal for our goals. Please reconsider and reevaluate when you get a chance." "You fucked up that function. Fix up your shit NOW." The first is "standard professionalspeak." It's clear, direct, gets th…

There is a scale of insincerity to rudeness. I've been in cultures where each of those is considered respectful and reasonable.

The onus is very much on corporate America to accept diversity. Right now, the only persons of color who are hired are ones who have mastered the culture, for example. That doesn't have much to do with technical skills. That's almost the definition of discrimination.

Respect has to do with how you feel towards a person. People can read through the language used, and as unprofessional as "Fix up your shit NOW" may sound, the details of body language, tone of voice, and facial expression can make that disdainful, angry, respectful, or any of many other things, depending on how you read it.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#284

Post by kislotnik »

dbaupp wrote: post #187
kislotnik wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't tolerate them but want them to tolerate others. TBH, I'd be totally fine if Linus ranted over my code because that's the way he is and I don't believe in community that tries to isolate an individual because he/she doesn't have a popular mindset. Edit: typical -> popular

The whole "you're tolerant so you have to tolerate intolerance!!1!" thing is not some clever loophole, it's just a weak attempt to justify why people shouldn't be called out for being unpleasant/bigoted. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tolerance#Paradox_of_tolerance

Thanks, for paradox.

It's not a wild west when you call people out because they are unpleasant. In modern world (as I see it) you create a competition and public follows best one.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#285

Post by Nacraile »

hackuser wrote: post #202
rpcastagna wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's disingenuous to try to appeal to what you see as the norms of "professional IT culture" when Linus founded the Linux community, and with it, its culture. I think invoking the "Ugly American" concept when discussing this is interesting because saying that Linus and the Linux community should conform to "professional IT culture" at large seems emblematic of that mentality. Linus started a community and get…

That comment seems to assume that if enough people do it, it therefore is a good idea. Not all behavior is relatively the same; good and bad don't depend on what the majority likes to do. Lots of people in the business world are condescending toward women; that doesn't make it good or acceptable. In a different context, civil rights exist to protect the minority from the majority. My point in the GP was that the clai…

Your arguments are internally inconsistent. Up one level, you argue that newcomers should adapt to the norms of different cultures, rather than expecting everybody to conform to their own expectations (fine). rpcastanga points out that Linus is behaving according to the norms of the linux community culture, and by your own argument newcomers should adapt to that culture rather than demanding Linus conform to "professional IT culture". You then turn around and complain about the fallacy of "if enough people do it, it therefore is a good idea". See the contradiction?

As far as I can tell you have not successfully argued that Linus / the linux community have no norm of respect. Other commenters have pointed out that the community does in fact have norms of respect, but that those norms include a clause along the lines of "if you bullshit and command a position where you are expected to know better, you may be bluntly called out on it".

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#286

Post by x0x0 »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #98
problems wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people have a publicly listed personal phone number though?

I've gotten texts and calls in the middle of the night from people wanting help on open source stuff I've worked on, and I have no publicly listed personal phone number. No idea how they all get it, although one told me that he got my business card at a conference. I imagine that's happened once or twice and it's been passed around. I do of course respond by saying it's inappropriate to call me directly in the middle…

I've gotten a couple calls from people that linked my email in a git log to my domain name which lists my cell phone.

I was not polite. Figuring out how to type "git clone" does not entitle you to bother me.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#287

Post by dzhiurgis »

pjc50 wrote: post #86
pc86 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's possible for me to wake up a developer with only a phone call, I think your support system is broken.

Developers have phone numbers like anyone else. And when people aren't paying for support, because this is open source, there isn't exactly going to be a 24/7 support helpline.

> aren't paying for support, because this is open source

Side (probably useless) note: I think majority of people ARE paying for support because it IS open source. You don't pay for support for commercial software, because that is included in the sticker price.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#288

Post by wyager »

sedachv wrote: post #258
wyager wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a survival mechanism. Not everyone has the time or ability to be nice to everyone they have to deal with in a position like Torvalds'.

> It's a survival mechanism. Not everyone has the time or ability to be nice to everyone they have to deal with in a position like Torvalds'. Flaming someone on a mailing list takes as much time as being nice to them. If it was about time then Linus could just ignore or dismiss things without going out of his way to type up insults.

> Flaming someone on a mailing list takes as much time as being nice to them.

Not if you take into account the time saved by (strongly) discouraging people from wasting your time in the future.

> If it was about time then Linus could just ignore or dismiss things

No, you absolutely cannot do that. If you ignore people on software projects, they do not go away. They just get more convinced that they're right, which means getting more shrill and insistent.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#289

Post by merb »

sedachv wrote: post #259
dpark wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did willhslade say that it does. He said that comparing Knuth's style to Torvalds's isn't very enlightening because they are fundamentally engaged in different activities. Comparing Knuth to Torvalds and saying "look, you don't have to be an asshole to be a great leader" is like comparing Usain Bolt to Dean Karnazes and saying "look, you don't have to be really muscular to be a great sprinter." The comparison…

> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. So pretty much everyone except for Torvalds and de Raadt? Those guys are the exception and not the rule.

define large-scale?

used in large-scale or has a large-scale developer base? for used in large-scale I know some, but they don't have a large-scale developer base.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#290

Post by dpark »

rodgerd wrote: post #272
dpark wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did willhslade say that it does. He said that comparing Knuth's style to Torvalds's isn't very enlightening because they are fundamentally engaged in different activities. Comparing Knuth to Torvalds and saying "look, you don't have to be an asshole to be a great leader" is like comparing Usain Bolt to Dean Karnazes and saying "look, you don't have to be really muscular to be a great sprinter." The comparison…

> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. Larry Wall. Tom Lane. Off the top of my head.

To be clear, I'm also not claiming that a leader has to be an asshole. I agree with willhslade that Knuth is not a meaningful counterpoint to Torvalds, though.
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