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A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

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Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tragedy of the commons situation. Even if you understand the downside of centralized systems (and most people really do not), you cannot individually do anything to stop them. So you use them out of convenience. "Decentralized" people are out of touch only to the degree that they believe that they can change the world based on collective altruism. That is an uphill battle. They are not out of touch in realizin…

People would change the way they use the web, not stop using it.

Yes, that is precisely my argument. Make the normal web sufficiently oppressive, and the freedom provided by decentralization becomes so compelling that people switch to it.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(B) is what Bitcoin did with drugs, assassination, etc. and BitTorrent did with file pirating. That said I agree with you and that was exactly my point. Instead of coming from altruism they should build something genuinely useful that's only possible as a decentralized system.

> assassination Do you have any evidence that this ever happened?

First, I am speaking from my own browsing experience on the now-dead silkroad.

Second, I'm not trying to disagree with you at all. It was to point out that there are definitely use cases for decentralized technologies where centralized systems can't go (although a lot have been negative so far)

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the change will come is when we are no longer dependent on paying for network access. That will be the financial incentive. A fully decentralized web would be delivered peer-to-peer via a mesh network or something similar. Anything else is a farce, because it's not just about who holds the data on the network, it's about the network itself. If any link in the chain of the communication can be controlled by some…

> Where the change will come is when we are no longer dependent on paying for network access. When is that going to happen? All those routers, etc. don't run on fairy dust and the people that keep them serviced and running kind of enjoy doing things like being able to afford to eat, etc. Even if you get rid of that part, you have to provide power to the devices and pay for a place to put them. Don't expect that a loc…

> When is that going to happen?

It already happens/has happened with AMPRnet, HSMM, CUWiN, Freifunk, FunkFeuer, OpenWireless, Firetide, Guifi.net, Netsukuku, Ninux, Senceive, and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network

When higher levels of portable energy become safer and cheaper, then it would be more likely that a small radio could be used to transmit and receive over longer distances.

If a company like Google and Facebook were to provide free adequately high-speed internet access, there'd be less incentive for a free peer-based network wherever they provided free access. Google's free wired plan is lower speed and they didn't plan to expand it; however, I'm not sure about their plans for Wifi. Neither Facebook nor Google have stated they plan to provide access everywhere. So, free access via a peer-based network would remain an incentive over paid plans for the foreseeable future.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe both of you are on the opposite sides of a false dichotomy. Just sayin'...

Yes. E.g. centralized Snapchat has a multi-billion market value based on marketing of ephemeral messaging and a fun UX. Despite technical limitations of the marketing claims, they have reduced the audience for their "historical conversations" from "all customers" to "malicious actors", which is a big step forward.

Snapchat created a multi-billion dollar market via centralized tech and money taken in on the promise they'll monetize it (or the data under EULA) somehow while giving app away for free and operating in a pseudo-police state. I was hesitant to think anything good would come of that after the main SMS and Facebook alternative I pushed for mass audience, WhatApp, was acquired by Facebook in one of largest acquisitions in history. (sighs)

Also, WhatApp was losing incredible amount of money with its number of users despite using efficient, centralized tech. I bet they'd loose even more if people were mostly sending images. I've been thinking secure, decentralized apps with no advertising or acquisition will cost money to develop that will require paying users. Or some clever freemium model. Also, not in a police state. ;)

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why on earth are you using a centralised chat product for Solid?! Please at least give https://riot.im a go - you can bridge it straight into Gitter for people who like the gitter UI :)

On a side note, Riot is a site with really annoying animation. Whatever else it may be, the animation banner just killed it for me.

In the same vein as this discussion, you can actually set up your own client - and tweak it to suit your needs, such as removing any banners, adjusting style, etc. - and still interact with others via matrix.org protocol.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#286

So nobody can "give the power back" to anybody, but people can stop giving their power away to others. We all have power, and we manifest it through our actions and choices. Some say knowledge is power, but in order to gain knowledge you have to make that choice. One can try to educate people about the benefits of hosting their own data, but unless they make the choice to listen and understand it's all for nothing. I…

The "People don't understand" is a condescending statement and is exactly the reason why the people who try to build these decentralized systems never succeed, because they don't even understand why people use information silos. If you really think that's the problem and you think you know better than other people, you should quit using every single centralized system out there, like your bank (they take your money a…

"The "People don't understand" is a condescending statement and is exactly the reason why the people who try to build these decentralized systems never succeed, because they don't even understand why people use information silos."

I've talked to at least hundreds, maybe a thousand, people (not techies) about these issues over past 10 years. Most don't understand the scope of the problem in terms of the tradeoff they're making. Many also think main suppliers couldn't, wouldn't, etc do sinister things X, Y, and Z because something would happen. Many think problems X, Y, and Z are inevitable since all the famous apps allow them for extra profit or growth. Vast majority don't know much about computers, privacy law, or U.S. history of surveillance states (eg Hoover) because they don't put time into learning. They will shout about minor things that are similar on TV they understand with little thought.

So, it's not condescending. It's a fact that "people don't understand," are apathetic, or terrible at long-term risk/reward tradeoffs. There's shitloads of empirical evidence confirming it in terms of what they adopt in the market vs what problems it causes them. And what crap they adopt next time. We definitely should put the share of blame on them that they earn.

"It is these "decentralized" people who are out of touch, not the ordinary people."

A lot of them are, too, in fairness. They come up with all kinds of crazy, unrealistic solutions that ignore human nature, economics, etc. Best models are going to be hybrids.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#287

So nobody can "give the power back" to anybody, but people can stop giving their power away to others. We all have power, and we manifest it through our actions and choices. Some say knowledge is power, but in order to gain knowledge you have to make that choice. One can try to educate people about the benefits of hosting their own data, but unless they make the choice to listen and understand it's all for nothing. I…

You know, I've come to the same conclusion from a different direction. I decided that people's expectations frequently exceed the cost of fulfilling those expectations because they spend a lot of time speaking for others. All of this stuff we're doing right now is non-scalable when it comes to implementing everyone's different privacy concerns at scale in a centralized solution. We simply can't scale infrastructure at the speed the public expects, while at the same time throwing away privacy rights it would take them half a lifetime to understand.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "People don't understand" is a condescending statement and is exactly the reason why the people who try to build these decentralized systems never succeed, because they don't even understand why people use information silos. If you really think that's the problem and you think you know better than other people, you should quit using every single centralized system out there, like your bank (they take your money a…

It's a tragedy of the commons situation. Even if you understand the downside of centralized systems (and most people really do not), you cannot individually do anything to stop them. So you use them out of convenience. "Decentralized" people are out of touch only to the degree that they believe that they can change the world based on collective altruism. That is an uphill battle. They are not out of touch in realizin…

It's possible to deploy SaaS software on-prem now. There's a c) solution that takes the middle path where we all win. Unfortunately it takes implementing a type of "suffering currency" to enable how people pay for it. If they are willing to slow down a little for reliability, they get more reliability. If they insist on running recursive workloads, and in general just chew up a bunch of resources for no gain, they get their workloads slowed a little. Works with the Open Source model too.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People would change the way they use the web, not stop using it.

Yes, that is precisely my argument. Make the normal web sufficiently oppressive, and the freedom provided by decentralization becomes so compelling that people switch to it.

Do you seriously expect that in dystopian scenario altenative going to be available? Even if decentralized services going to remain available do you think people will risk using them?

Most likely they won't going to do that. This is proved by China and more extreme example of North Korea also available.

Or just look at any country with totalitarian regime: they increase regulations really slowly so people "too busy" to think about that, but at some point they simply too scared to do anything.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#290
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook and goog is build by armies of full time folks with average salaries of 150k. Competing with volunteers doesn't get you far. Even the rise of git was because of github. A for profit centralized company. May be the best case is to have open, decentralized protocols, with for profit companies providing hosting and simple signup. ICQ or XMPP, never quite took off like slack. Is it because of the interface?

A couple of years ago everybody had ICQ, at least here in Germany. I wouldn't say that it "didn't take off".

Same in Australia before MSN messenger (and now facebook messenger) supplanted it. I set my phone notification to the default ICQ sound and if I get a message in a meeting I see the instant wave of nostalgia across everyone's face.
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